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PPU more then 100% faster then CPU in UT3 benchmark here.

“The physics effects in the PPU maps of UT3 put extra strain on the CPU, and you two are the only gamers on this forum who seem to think it's worth getting your framerate shredded in half.”
When did I ever say its good to get your FPS shredded in half. I said the very opposite. I don’t like the PPU maps. Are you just out to cuase touble? It looks like it.

Its not worth getting your FPS cut in half. It is worth useing the PPU to boost FPS on normal maps.





“Now that Pottsey has contradicted himself about the Crysis physics, it's time for me to have fun.”
Where have I contradicted myself. If you understood what I said you will see I have not.
 
“Er thats total rubbish, my agiea physx PPU makes ~2fps difference to UT3”
I missed it and it appears your guessing. Did you run a timedemo and record the results? How did you benchmark? Did you use the UT 3 PPU drivers?



“So why aren't you complaining about the rest of the physics in UT3?”
Why would I complain?



“There you go contradicting yourself again.”
Give me the post numbers that’s shows that.
 
“Pottsey just agreed with me.”
I did not agree the game is PPU limited. Read it again.
Twice you said I am contradicting my self. I don’t see eithe,. Please quote me or give me post numbers
 
EDITED
"The only thing its missing is a quad core and given that this is meant to be showing off ppu physics a quad core shouldn't be needed."
The map is CPU limited a QUAD core is needed.




“How is this not high end hardware?”
I consider quad core high end and dual core mid end. As for the GPU I made a mistakes and though the GT was under GTS speed. Didn’t realise it was near GTX.




“if you call fraps 'guessing' then go right ahead,”
How do you fraps the same map?
The 2nd run though all the bots are doing different things which mean different physics which mean different FPS. You’re also doing different things. Unless you know how to do a timedemo, in which case please share.




“1)Why did you not reply to that thread”
I missed it and only post if I have something to add. I find most PPU threads but I do miss some.





“2)And have you personally played these maps on your computer pottsey ?”
Yes and said before I don’t like the bonus maps. To many problems with them.




“3)Please list your systems specs for me”
P4 D 3.2 Ghz (the old ones) , 8800GTS, 4gig, Vista what else do you want?
 
“*goes to hunt for something to film it on, be about 30 ish mins”
Don’t bother unless you’re running a time demo.

Unless you have the same bot path, same player path, same phsyics per run though its not a fair or accurate benchmark. Thats what I want to see as that will settle this one and for all. I want to see a timedemo with a slow, and fast CPU with and without the PPU on both.
 
“You're CPU is a bottleneck to that GTS.”
Yep pretty much, which is why I like my PPU. The less physics the CPU is doing the more CPU power goes to my GTS. The PPU means I can play normal UT maps without needing to upgrade my CPU/motherboard. The bonus maps are unplayable.
 
“What are you goin on about, fraps shows the current FPS on screen............like I SAID IM GOING TO FILM IT NOW !”
Yes FRAPS shows the current FPS. But unless you can run the same test twice you cannot compare with and without the PPU.

What if the 2nd time you run though with the PPU there are twice as much phsyics going off due to bot actively. What if there is half as much physics going off due to bots? Its an unfair test so there is no point in filming.

You cannot run two different tests with different amount of physics and compare the results to work out the fastest



EDIT:
“You dont need a time demo pottsey to see it runs crud constantly and when the amount of physx stuff going on increases, so dont talk utter rubbish, people will see for real in a real game its useless“
So your saying the normal maps run crud constantly with the PPU as physics go off? if its the bonus maps well we all know they run bad. I get sub 20fps.
 
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“Do you have a PPU? If you do try it for yourself and see. You don't need a timedemo to see that you are not getting much of an FPS boost.”
I appear to be getting a decent FPS boost about 15fps. But I want a time demo to be sure. Like I said before bots could be messing up my score. Its not a fair bencmark and I might be wrong about 15fps.




“The amount going on is not going to be THAT much different. Sure it won't be totally accurate, but it will give you a rough guide as to what difference it will make.”
It is. Without a PPU, record results on the same map. The average FPS jumps around a lot based on the bots and your play style. If you spend lots of time with the sniper one map, then close range weapons next time on the same map get a very different FPS results. Hanging around one part of the level more then the other part can change results a lot as well.





“But you are lucky if you get just a few FPS, which at anything already over ~40FPS is pretty much pointless.”
100 is better then 60 and 65 is better then 55. More FPS is always better. Anything over 40 isn’t useless. Your just guessing at it only being a few FPS. There is no evidence to say that. We don’t have any evidence about the precise number yet. You could be right, then again you could be wrong we need a good benchmark.




“A64 @ 2.45GHz yet even then the PPU does not give me an FPS boost big enough to warrant its £80 price tag.”
So you have a PPU or is that another guess?
 
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“That's complete rubbish. If it doesn't add any extra effects, why should I bother buying one? If it doesn't add extra effects, why should I buy a PPU just to play some PPU map at 26fps?”
What I said is not rubbish, its true. Some of you guys need to learn to read. A lot of you are having a go at me for things I never said. I never said the bonus maps are worthwhile, I never said the PPU is worth while for UT. I never said go out and buy a PPU. All I said was its not true that it lowers FPS and that it does boost FPS and that we cannot say for sure how much it boost FPS as no one has run a fair benchmark.




"Personally I'm seeing more like a 8-12 FPS boost."
Another person agrees with me. The PPU does boost FPS. We just need some fair benchmarks now to find out the precise FPS boost.







“Once again I'll happily point out the non Physx levels on UT3 recieve no boost from the physx card.”
Everything points to them getting a boost, yet you say they don’t. Are you making that up or do you have evidence? The question is how big or small is the boost and that we don’t know as no one has ran a fair benchmark




“Why are you going on about bots? No one cares about single player. In MP there is always the same variety of things going on. If it botheres you that much then run a server yourself and then you will be alone. Then you can test without anything polluting your results.”
You fail to completely understand me. You cannot benchmark 2 multiplayer games with human players as a means to compare FPS results between two settings. Its completely unfair. If someone did that while testing ATI v Nivida GPUs everyone would be up in arms and there would be pages of people complaining about it.

You can record a timedemo of a multiplayer game, then use that time demo that’s fair. But two different multiplayer games is not.





“There's no point having a special map with so much physics involved that, even with a PPU, the framerate is half what it would be on a map without so much physics.”
30fps is playable and with quad core it’s over 30fps. Why is it pointless? I don’t like the maps my self but they seem popular to play so cannot be that bad.




“You seem to be implying that PhysX boosts FPS in all circumstances. That just isn't true,”
But it is true from what we have seen so far. If you mean the PPU that is.
Show me where it doesn’t boost FPS in UT?






”But the addition of the physx stuff makes the whole game run like crap.”
A minuet ago everyone has going on about how well the games runs on normal levels with physx and its over 60fps. Now you’re saying it runs like crap? As far as I can see physx works very well and the FPS as a hole are very high. The whole game is not poor due to physx. Your just makeing stuff up. Physx is not poor. Just look at how well UT runs.






“Numerous engines had been doing better physics than that for quite a while now, not to mention how bad it looks next to the Alan Wake tornado footage and the Crysis tornados”
The Alan Wake tornado was terrible and the Crysis ones I have to look closer at but they don’t appear to be that good physics wise.



“100 might be better than 60 (only because you're lows would be higher) but you don't get anywhere near that kind of increase.”
I don’t agree 100 is much better then 60 not because of the lows. 100fps looks far more smooth with better movement then 60.



“Regarded better by who? Imaginary people? The peopple who work for geia? Loonatics?”
The Ageia API is very popular with developers. At shows the stand is full of people impressed by what it does. The people who use the API say its better.
 
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”There are so few games available that use the PhysX API, and even fewer that are actually worth playing. I can only think of UT3 to be honest, and even then PhysX doesn't really enhance the game much.”
There are 100’s of games most don’t announced what physics they use so you can use Physx and never know. Its very common in none PC games as well the PS3 has it as part of the default SDK sent out to all developers. Its in all sorts from Gears of War to Rise of Nations.




“Do they though? How can you back up that statement?”
With difficulty. If it weren’t popular there wouldn’t be 100’s of games that use it. If it wasn’t popular the trade stand would be empty at all the shows.

Fair enough you want links, I will see what I can dig up. Give me a few days and if I don’t post anything send me a reminder.



“If you're going to say the PhysX API is popular, you need to back it up with evidence, not just your own words.”
So all the links I have posted in the past showing 100’s of games don’t count?
 
"I've a good mind to report Pottsey as a viral marketer for Ageia to be honest"
Well if you actually read what I was writing you would notice I said the bonus maps are a waste of time and I never said the PPU is needed for UT3 and for sure never said anyone should buy one recently. Thats not a viral marketer.

But some of you guys just don’t like to read and instead have a go at me. Report me if you like, but I am doing nothing wrong. All I did was pointed out the mistakes some people made when they said the PPU lowers FPS.
 
You’re being far too harsh.
I don’t spam, I don’t post in none physic threads about PPU’s and I don’t make up tons of threads each month. I only post new threads when I have something new to talk about and that’s about 1 a month. I don’t see how I am doing anything wrong. Others clearly like talking about PPU’s and as long as its not being spammed over lots of threads what’s the problem?
 
”Pottsey, because any fanboy that makes themselves as big a target as he does will be treated as such regardless of who they are or what brand they cheerlead.”
But I am not really a fanboy. I don’t think the product is perfect, I often say how bad some of it is and I don’t spam all over the place making stuff up. Take this thread I pointed out some of the facts are wrong and some of you jumped on me thinking I was trying to sell the product and make it sound like everyone should get one.

Also you said I am contradicting my self more then once. Please show me where, so I can correct my mistakes.
 
“"PPU more then 100% faster then CPU in UT3" when clearly it's not.”
26.1 v 12.1 clearly is a 100% faster. It’s more then playable if you have a quad core. If it was unplayable lots of people wouldn’t be playing and enjoying it on the online server. I dont see how 30fps+ is unplayable.




“On normal maps it makes next to no noticeable difference, so what is the point?”
We have yet to see if that’s true. We need a fair benchmark. Aynway I have been saying for a while the PPU is a luxury item not a must have item. It’s nice to have to boost FPS but you don’t need it for UT. Your better off with it, then without it, but you don’t need it.
 
“Please Pottsey tell us what the hell the PPU is making the CPU do that takes up 2 more corse of cycles AND still is only 30fps?”
Honestly I don’t know. Other members have posted good theories but I am not sure how we can test them. If you go back to around about page 2 or 3 Marc Fraser posted some good ideas. Well it would be good if we had a quad core and tested to see if its CPU limited like dual core.

It could be anything from a very bad map design and nothing to do with the PPU effects. Perhaps the PPU effects are stressing out the GPU to much so it’s the PPU faults. Perhaps it’s the AI dodging and dealing with all the extra map options.

There are more maps coming it will be interesting to see what if they have all the problems the first two maps have.

Either way UT isn’t a good reason to rush out and buy a PPU.
 
“Pottsey, will you addmit that it MIGHT be the PPU not able to cope? As you seem like that isnt the case but as you say, how do we know?“
It might be but everything points to it being a CPU problem. There isn’t one bit of evidence to suggest it’s the PPU not coping. It could be a problem but what makes you think it is?

We need a CPU that’s not holding back the game and if that fix’s the FPS then its not the PPU. If it doesn’t fix the FPS it might be the PPU.
 
“Wait, if it's a CPU problem - why isn't the PPU doing anything about it?“
It is that’s why the FPS go up by 100%. But its not enough even without the physics strain on the CPU the maps are still CPU limited for some reason.

The question is why is it still CPU limited? What is cuaseing the CPU to run at 100%.
 
“which run like crap either way, doesn't mean you get double FPS in all of them. The fact that your thread title suggests you do is the reason I said that as it suggest you are indeed a fanboy..”
But its not crap either way, 30fps+ is not crap. I didn’t think it did suggest all of them. It says in the benchmark here its gets 100% more and it does in the benchmark listed. It turns the map from unplayable to playable.




“Yes there is one, but it is very small. We don't need an exact number. Benchmarks are NOT IMPORTANT as you don't play a benchmark.”
Don’t be so silly. I guess people never look at benchmarks to see how much a FPS difference the next grade up GPU or CPU makes. I guess GPU reviews shouldn’t bother posting exact numbers or do the same test for each card. Lets just go by feel and run the map differently each time instead of the same timedemo.

When you have some people saying the PPU made UT go from shuttering to smooth and others saying not. You need a fair benchmark,

Jamous and many others say its make a difference. Clearly we need a benchmark to see who’s right.





“I'd say you are wrong. You are not better off with it. To buy it is to throw money away. It is next to worthless.”
I didn’t mean from a money point of view I meant from a hardware point of view. As I said before it’s a luxury item and if you can afford it then your better off with it then without.





“10FPS in a game that does over 60FPS is NOT WORTH IT because it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE to your gameplay.”
10fps makes the game smoother, increase’s your reaction time and let’s you aim easier. More FPS are always better and more FPS do change gameplay. Some people say its more then 10fps as well. 70 is better then 60. What about when you dip below 60? You might dip down to 25 without the PPU but stay at 35 to 40 with the PPU.





“If a quad core and PPU and 8800 cant handle the extra effects then please tell me what the hell will?”
They can. It’s pretty clear that setup would be more then playable.




“If the PPU took a stock physics map from 30/35 FPS up to 50/60 FPS then id agree, but it doesnt.”
How do you know? Many people say it does make a diffrance. No one has ran benchmarks to confirm it doesn’t or does,.




“do you see a time when all enthusiasts have dedicated ppu's like all have soundcards....?”
Yes but only if a lot of improvements are made. If everyone had a very good PPU it would be good as physics could be pushed forward.




”and do you think that the physX physics effects are demonstrably better than havok or similar physics apis?!”
Yes it’s better but there is still room fro improvements. There are many phsyics effects we have seen with the PhysX API that we havnt from the Havok API.

Saying that not all physics are better some are the same.
 
That’s a myth that’s been proven wrong time and time again and is very easy to prove wrong. The eyes don’t see in FPS they stream data and the eye can see a difference up to and beyond 200fps.

Unless of course you have an LCD/CRT with a low refrash rate. If your refrash is 60hz then your display cannot show more then 60fps.
 
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