Stasi or what!? F that.
Proposed New Driving Test
- Thread starter Cookeh
- Start date
Stasi or what!? F that.
I think whats becoming clear is that what you are tested on during both theory and practical tests does not correlate to the skills people hope a driver should have.
No amount of lessons is going to teach you how to handle evasive driving when a sofa falls off the back of a lorry in front of you. Your driving instructor isn't taking you out in the rain and telling you to make the car slide to teach you how to control it. Your not forced to handle a car with a blow out, or deal with high speed congestion. These things are not taught because they are not tested.
The UK theory and practical test teach you, and then test you on, the rules of the road. They do not teach you or test you on car control or reaticting to hazzards (the hazzard awareness is a joke. It shows you spotted the car pulling out in front of you, but doesn't record how you would react to it).
Its becoming clear to me that people are expecting (rightly so) there to be a level of education and testing that simply cannot be met by the current testing structure. No amount of mandated hours sat with a driving instructor learning which lane to be in at a roundabout is going to teach you that.
No amount of lessons is going to teach you how to handle evasive driving when a sofa falls off the back of a lorry in front of you. Your driving instructor isn't taking you out in the rain and telling you to make the car slide to teach you how to control it. Your not forced to handle a car with a blow out, or deal with high speed congestion. These things are not taught because they are not tested.
The UK theory and practical test teach you, and then test you on, the rules of the road. They do not teach you or test you on car control or reaticting to hazzards (the hazzard awareness is a joke. It shows you spotted the car pulling out in front of you, but doesn't record how you would react to it).
Its becoming clear to me that people are expecting (rightly so) there to be a level of education and testing that simply cannot be met by the current testing structure. No amount of mandated hours sat with a driving instructor learning which lane to be in at a roundabout is going to teach you that.
Soldato
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I passed aged 36 and I *still* drive like one!!
Don
This x1000
I'm sure everyone on here could match Senna's ability, but you see some right morons on the road.
What they need to teach is that you drive in the left mother ******* lane and half the congestion would deal with itself. I hate MLMs with such a passion.
As do I. This is a very clear example of the failings of the current system. Nobody knows which lane to be in because at no point in obtaining a license do you get told.
Soldato
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You test the skillset that they would be expected to use in such situations.
This is how the CBT works for bikes.
One day of training and so long as you demonstrate an accptable level of skill, you are certified to ride a 125. It's not even an test.
The actual test comprises nothing not already covered on CBT either. You're just tested to a higher standard. You can theoretically pass that without any further training... and some people do.
Yup, I'm sure I could... but what matters is not what you do every 10 years on the test. It's how you actually behave.
People can quite easily drive at just under the speed limit everywhere, for example.... but do they? Do they ****!!!!!
Retesting will do nothing on a large scale more than incovenience people (as they'll have to book months in advance, no matter how many examiners you appoint) and only weed out those comparatively few stupid/ditzy enough to misbehave on-test.
Soldato
But what happens if you fail the retest due to say.. Bad parking!? Do you sell your car? Get banned from driving until the next test day comes? There are so many reasons why you could fail a test that it's just unreal.. ! I'd say theory retest would make sense, to learn new road rules etc. But driving? I can see the centres having 1year + queues, many people who drove for living out of jobs etc.
Man of Honour
..why would that be an issue? If you fail due to not being able to parallel park after 10 years then you shouldn't be able to pass the test first time.
You what? Theory test....? Highway code....? Both of which you need to pass/know to obtain your license?
You could quite easily pass a theory test with no knowledge of motorways.
(You also don't need to "know the highway code" to get a license).
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You need to know the highway code for your theory test - that is what the theory test is based on after all.
Soldato
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Maybe the retest should cover important things that seem to break regularly on cars i.e. fog light switch, indicators
.
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Soldato
Ok, so it's a bright sunny day in the middle of June on the day of the test...
How do you test someone's ability to drive appropriately and control the vehicle correctly when driving in a foot of snow?
Do you think people who have been driving poorly for 10 years will find it easy not fall back into their bad habits during the test?
I fail to see why that's an issue?
If you're stupid enough to leave your retest until the last minute... you know, same as if you leave your MOT until the day before it expires and it turns out it needs a lot of work.
Meanwhile, most sensible people would renew up to e.g. a year in advance, so if they did fail then they'd have months to get up to standard and retest.
Maybe the retest should cover important things that seem to break regularly on cars i.e. fog light switch, indicators
IMO indicators should be made compulsory equipment - I don't know why they're not, since nobody seems to spec the option (especially on German cars!)
Associate
Is this not just a cost saving exercise - less tests means less use of examiners which reduces cost of paying examiners or reduces number of examiners needed?
If anything the conditions after passing need to be changed -
For example not being able to own a vehicle above 1.2 litres for the first 2 years to reduce the likelihood of RTAs.
Even making speed limiters compulsory.
A refresher test after 12 months to identify and/or eradicate 'bad habits'.
Reduced insurance costs for under 21's to try remove the temptation to drive uninsured because of ridiculously high costs.
If passing in the Summer (for example) be forced to attend some form of Winter training, day / night etc.
They're just ideas and not 100% thought through but I would argue that over 65's need to be tested annually. Not statistically checked but in my county of Wiltshire I'd estimate 75% of the RTA's reported this Summer had the phrase 'eldery person' integral to the story.
Also I don't think you can add a number of hours taken to pass as a valid argument to someones ability to drive, ability is purely how quick and adaptive an individual can be and absorb information and learn the intracacies - it's down to their personality how well they drive after passing. It might take some one 10 hours to pass and they might be a near perfect driver but it could take someone 40 hours and they could be an idiotic whale tail spoiler citroen saxo driving pleb. Both drivers may well have the same level of competency but choose to use it differently.
Personally I passed through the Army which involved 4 of us in a car taking it in turns to drive around Beverley over the course of 4 days with a test on Friday. I doubt I did more than 8/9 hours of driving. But after 8 hours of driving round a single town and the test being in the exact same location it is nigh on impossible to fail and even if we did we just went back and tried again. Think the military has the highest percentage of road deaths by profession than anyone in the UK. Not hard to see why.
If anything the conditions after passing need to be changed -
For example not being able to own a vehicle above 1.2 litres for the first 2 years to reduce the likelihood of RTAs.
Even making speed limiters compulsory.
A refresher test after 12 months to identify and/or eradicate 'bad habits'.
Reduced insurance costs for under 21's to try remove the temptation to drive uninsured because of ridiculously high costs.
If passing in the Summer (for example) be forced to attend some form of Winter training, day / night etc.
They're just ideas and not 100% thought through but I would argue that over 65's need to be tested annually. Not statistically checked but in my county of Wiltshire I'd estimate 75% of the RTA's reported this Summer had the phrase 'eldery person' integral to the story.
Also I don't think you can add a number of hours taken to pass as a valid argument to someones ability to drive, ability is purely how quick and adaptive an individual can be and absorb information and learn the intracacies - it's down to their personality how well they drive after passing. It might take some one 10 hours to pass and they might be a near perfect driver but it could take someone 40 hours and they could be an idiotic whale tail spoiler citroen saxo driving pleb. Both drivers may well have the same level of competency but choose to use it differently.
Personally I passed through the Army which involved 4 of us in a car taking it in turns to drive around Beverley over the course of 4 days with a test on Friday. I doubt I did more than 8/9 hours of driving. But after 8 hours of driving round a single town and the test being in the exact same location it is nigh on impossible to fail and even if we did we just went back and tried again. Think the military has the highest percentage of road deaths by profession than anyone in the UK. Not hard to see why.
Soldato
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Then pull the A licences of almost every biker out there today... because the one thing almost no-one uses post-test is the U-Turn/Turn-In-Road.
I could use my car all day - For the daily commute, travel between work sites, filling up on fuel, the weekly supermarket shop, going to the mall, swinging by the vape shop and visiting all my local friends.
Not ONCE would I need to parallel park in any of that, not even if I did that 24/7 for 10 years straight.
If you don't ever use it, the skill will perish.
What about 2 foot? 3 foot?Ok, so it's a bright sunny day in the middle of June on the day of the test...
How do you test someone's ability to drive appropriately and control the vehicle correctly when driving in a foot of snow?
What about rain but not snow?
What about sleet, but not quite snow, but also light-medium rain, but not in the dark, but with 60% fog?
Skillset and ability are two different things.
The former can be taught. The latter comes only from the experience of applying the former under such conditions.
Otherwise you'd need everyone to take years out of their lives, waiting for the exact right conditions to train and test in, before anyone is allowed on the roads... assuming they can get a Test Me For Driving In Snow slot in amongst the millions of others now having to do the same.
Double that every time you think up another condition.
You cannot test and re-test for every little thing they might one day encounter. You can test that they have the skillset to deal with it.
Do you think people who dramatically exceed the speed limit are incapable of driving at 20mph?Do you think people who have been driving poorly for 10 years will find it easy not fall back into their bad habits during the test?
If you are sufficiently compos mentis to know the correct way and know you are being tested, it's easy enough to take care during the test. My concern is those who'll go right back to driving like ***** the minute they leave the test centre with their 10-year pass cert.
Soldato
Now you're just being silly.
How do you expect someone to have (never mind demonstrate) the skillset to deal with a situation they have never encountered?
It's all very well telling people how to drive in snow, but until they've actually done so, they're not going to have that skillset (as evidenced by how badly the country grinds to a halt when there's the slightest sprinkling)
No I think the people who don't bother sticking to the speed limit, indicating, have poor lane discipline, tailgate, etc. normally are far more likely to "slip up" in the test than people who are in the habit of driving properly (and therefore do it automatically).
But you seem to think that because we can't make the situation perfect we shouldn't bother trying to improve it at all? What a great attitude to have
Soldato
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Just working with what you give me...
How are we to certify people as safe for those conditions if we here pretty much never get them anyway? For example, someone mentioned in some other thread about driving tests that their local doesn't test the NSL routes because the highest speed limit for miles around is 40mph... so they've never shown they can drive at 70mph down a dual carriageway. Should they have a licence?
We don't usually get so much as 4" of snow in Reading and based on when we did, I'd have to wait something like 5 years before we get it again... never mind your foot of it!
You're right, you're right, you're right...
Let's stop sending trained soldiers into combat until some has actually tried to kill them for real and they have proven that they don't freeze up...
As I explained - The skillset to deal with them and the experience of actually using them are separate. You don't get the ability until you get the experience of successfully applying your skillset.
Since having things jumping out in front of a learner driver is ridiculous, the best we can do is a 'pretend' emergency stop. And so it goes for most situations - You teach them what can be physically taught, through similar circumstances and the rest is just imparting knowledge.
Strangely enough, I didn't practice snow-riding, heavy rain, sleet, -37ºC wind chills, skidding, half-lowsiding, swerving, understeering, target-locking, trail-braking or anything else like that during my training... and yet I've encountered all that and more during my time on the road and come through it perfectly fine every time, from the first to the most recent, as have many others... Clearly the training works for most of us!
So what IS your answer, then?
Where do I go to get my Snow Training?
Where do I get my Rain training?
Where do I get my City, Town, Motorway, Country Lane, Muddy Road, Foreign Road and all the other in-situ trainings for all the circumstances that might need a proven, certified, Got The T-Shirt test-pass?
Do you just put a list of Prohibited To Drive In conditions on their licence until they test in those as well?
In short - Where are you drawing the line, here?
They're already working on these specialist motorcycle training centres that would require people to travel serious distances just to train... you want all that crap for cars too?
And yet I don't really hear of that many offenders forced to re-take their licence that fail... because it suddenly matters. Give them advanced notice and they'll be practicing like billio... but can and will go straight back to being ***** one you let them go again.
Based on how often some cop friends nick people, I also believe a number of those driving so poorly do not actually have a licence, or had it revoked anyway, so the retest thing might not even affect them.
I would argue that many of the assertions thus far seem to be INSISTING on perfection when such a thing is impractical at best... if not impossible.But you seem to think that because we can't make the situation perfect we shouldn't bother trying to improve it at all? What a great attitude to have
Might as well add people's lack of Zero Gravity experience to the list...!!
Soldato
+1 to all that!
if all those were realistic, no one would pass the test!
reasons you have skid pad etc training in other countries is because they deal with ice, heavy snow etc EVERY season whereas in london I have not seen snow for.. what, 2 years now? and last time it was like 2" max.. for a few hours.
still from my POV, as long as you know the rules, how to stop, how to avoid emergencies on the road you will be fine! it's all about knowing how to deal with things! experiencing it all is impossible, never mind getting tested on it.
Soldato
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Exactly!reasons you have skid pad etc training in other countries is because they deal with ice, heavy snow etc EVERY season whereas in london I have not seen snow for.. what, 2 years now? and last time it was like 2" max.. for a few hours.
Some people will never experience it ever...
What I think would make the difference is more enforcement and less signage...
There are places, even round here, where so much has been signed that you cannot take it all in, never mind watching the road as well. You even have bends with Max Speed signs, which people naturally read as the goal and then try to go faster anyway...
A lot of bad driving is because people do not think or care - Too busy messing with stereo/satnav/bluetooth/makeup/meals/whatever, to actually think and focus on the road. At best, they think it won't happen to them.
At worst, they generally know they won't get caught and they certainly know no-one can stop them as they intentionally blast across five lanes in one move without looking or indicating.
More enforcement to catch them and harsher penalties to reinforce the fear of being caught.
Speeding is the easy one - Ditch the fine and double the points. Watch how that drops as people realise being caught now has more serious implications.
However, more enforcement will be needed as now-unlicenced drivers take to the road.
I understand similar measures regularly get proposed, but are sidelined due to the expected loss of Speed Camera Income.