Man of Honour
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Are they ? How so ?
Protect and Serve . . . yeah right !
- Thread starter Sliver
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Are they ? How so ?
It's a fair assumption Von - it's not like there haven't been some very controversial fatal shootings by British police officers. I've already mentioned Jean-Charles de Menezes, which really was a scandal, then just from memory there was that woman who got shot carrying a BB gun, a bloke in London who got shot carrying a chair leg, then Mark Duggan of course - I'm sure they'll all be listed on the internet somewhere. This incident happened in the US so fair enough, it gives you a chance to get all high and mighty about the so-called professionalism of British police officers, but one day it could be one of your fellow officers on the receiving end of a media witch-hunt and looking at a murder conviction.
Look at the ever increasing use of Tazers in the UK. Tazers were originally introduced as 'Alternative to Deadly Force' to be used ONLY when a Firearm would have had to have been used otherwise. I am not saying UK Police are as bad as US Police (- Yet!) where they can be seen repeatedly Tazing already heavily subdued and even handcuffed suspects as Compliance Torture Devices. But the UK is definitely going down the same route when even Children have been Tazed here.
even Children have been Tazed here.
And a blind man with a walking cane.
Soldato
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The "bloke shot carrying a chair leg" would be Harry Stanley, a convicted armed robber who also served time for GBH.
ARU was responding to a 999 call of "an Irishman with a gun wrapped in a bag".
This was 1999 and various elements of the IRA where still conducting a terrorist campaign against Britain.
When challenged by the ARU, Mr. Stanley turned to face the officers still holding the chair leg inside a carrier bag and was fatally shot.
Soldato
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But the UK is definitely going down the same route when even Children have been Tazed here.
What were these children doing to cause the police to intervene?
Did these children suffer any lasting physical damage?
What other less than lethal options were available to the officers involved at the time?
Man of Honour
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I find it amazing that some people prefer us to hit children with metal poles rather than use taser - because often that's the only alternative and it is much more likely to result in injury.
Man of Honour
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Look at the ever increasing use of Tazers in the UK. Tazers were originally introduced as 'Alternative to Deadly Force' to be used ONLY when a Firearm would have had to have been used otherwise. I am not saying UK Police are as bad as US Police (- Yet!) where they can be seen repeatedly Tazing already heavily subdued and even handcuffed suspects as Compliance Torture Devices. But the UK is definitely going down the same route when even Children have been Tazed here.
Taser isn't used as 'alternative to deadly force' and hasn't for a long time (if it ever was). Taser sits above holds and below baton/arm & leg strikes on the same level as CS spray.
Police use pain to gain compliance, it's an often ugly fact but some people will only respond to physical pain, be it arm and leg strikes, baton or taser. It's not torture, although I'm sure may people will shout until blue in the face that it is.
There are some circumstances that taser is the safest way to detain someone, for both their and the officer's safety.
Indeed, Had they actually succeeded in thwarting an attempted suicide bombing there likely would have be a nice collection of George Crosses/Medals awarded as a result.
The courage they displayed was not diminished in any way by the fact that, In hindsight, they had tragically misidentified their suspect.
It would, of course, have been politically impossible to make such an award in the aftermath of the shooting. And that, for me, is a great shame because those officers were badly short changed as a result.
There have been more "controversial" shootings by US police in the past 6 months than by British police in the past 20+ years. There are also a great many more occasions where lethal force would have been acceptable yet wasn't used because officers showed restraint, quick-thinking and weren't willing to escalate just because the option is there.
I'm not saying that the police necessarily did anything wrong in these cases - apart from the Jean-Charles de Menezes case. I'm just saying the media can whip up a media storm about any police shooting if they want and then a poor copper is looking at spending the rest of their life in prison to satisfy political correctness.
Indeed, Had they actually succeeded in thwarting an attempted suicide bombing there likely would have be a nice collection of George Crosses/Medals awarded as a result.
The courage they displayed was not diminished in any way by the fact that, In hindsight, they had tragically misidentified their suspect.
It would, of course, have been politically impossible to make such an award in the aftermath of the shooting. And that, for me, is a great shame because those officers were badly short changed as a result.
The Gold Commander that day - the officer who was ultimately responsible for the slaying of Jean-Charles - wasn't short changed, she got a promotion out of it.
Man of Honour
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Indeed, Had they actually succeeded in thwarting an attempted suicide bombing there likely would have be a nice collection of George Crosses/Medals awarded as a result.
The courage they displayed was not diminished in any way by the fact that, In hindsight, they had tragically misidentified their suspect.
It would, of course, have been politically impossible to make such an award in the aftermath of the shooting. And that, for me, is a great shame because those officers were badly short changed as a result.
Such is the luxury of hindsight and a metaphorical scalpel following a split second decision.
Man of Honour
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Look at the ever increasing use of Tazers in the UK. Tazers were originally introduced as 'Alternative to Deadly Force' to be used ONLY when a Firearm would have had to have been used otherwise. I am not saying UK Police are as bad as US Police (- Yet!) where they can be seen repeatedly Tazing already heavily subdued and even handcuffed suspects as Compliance Torture Devices. But the UK is definitely going down the same route when even Children have been Tazed here.
Taser is a less than lethal option. It is not an alternative to deadly force, never has been and was never designed as such.
Where you mention pain compliance when restrained, you have no argument from me but the subject' sage, within reason, is immaterial. I have had a 16 year old pull a knife out on me and had I had taser, I would not have hesitated for a second to use it.
A child can maim or kill you you the same as an adult but the response must be proportionate to the threat faced.
People have already pointed the more extream cases, the police are there to uphold the law not beat you into submission if you dont comply,
let me give you a few more examples, the minors strike, any football ground pre cctv, Ian tomlinson, they have shut down certain stations in london because of the brutality and corruption.
The ones that do their job well, more power to em but if we had an armed force we would see situations like this in the UK also.
Wasn't that the exact same point I made about the tragic shooting of Mr Scott by Officer S1ager?
Yet it doesn't in Canada, or Australia or in many Western European countries, so what makes you so sure it would here? You get misuse of force across all police services to some degree but firing 8 rounds into the back of an unarmed man is simply not a scenario I can realistically imagine playing out here under the same circumstances.
This is clearly a problem that is tied in to US-specific issues such as race, the proliferation of firearms, the organisational structure of the hundreds of law enforcement agencies they have and how they recruit, train and hold accountable their personnel. Branding it a police-wide issue regardless of country is being incredibly naive.
Im not saying its a police wide issue, im saying that if we had an armed force in the UK we would experiance issues like this one and thats based on some of the incidents mentioned.
Just my opinion, luckily we dont so it's academic.
We do have an Armed Police force that respond to incidents routinely every day, they're held to incredibly high standards and are constantly training and retraining
Yes and generally they seem to do a good job on the whole, im talking about a US style arm all situation.