Not mine, solid wooden hatch with a seal around it that's been crushed beyond usefulness.
Re-Installing Loft Flooring and Fixing the Errors of the Past
- Thread starter Mysterae_
- Start date
Not mine, solid wooden hatch with a seal around it that's been crushed beyond usefulness.
I'll try my best to seal it. There's a number of youtube videos where they've done something similar, using silicone, glue or caulk seal the edges. I'll probably replace the seal around the door too for good measure.
In tonight's episode of "what other surprises have we discovered?" I bring you the following.
Lifted some of the remaining boards and discovered some more mould underneath, I wasn't expecting it here.
This is above a different bathroom which doesn't have an extractor installed. That's a later job.....
Questionable wiring aside, here's where the moisture was getting in - through a small hole in the ceiling above the light fitting. It's amazing that so much moisture could permeate through the insulation but stands to reason as warm does move to cold air.
This is a bit of an odd find - an old box of matches with it's corner a bit chewed, still quite a few matches inside too.
Lift the insulation around it to reveal a lair.
The little critters have been stealing the insulation from the pipes and dragging it here to chew and break up for bedding. The matches might have been a bit extreme to get warm though.
Maybe removing the pipe insulation was part of their plan - to make the pipes freeze and burst thus putting out any fire. Mice are smart. And stupid. And soon dead.
Also note the lack of insulation here - the previous owners only laid two layers of what looks to be 50mm insulation. This is different from the stuff elsewhere oddly as well as foil backed plasterboard.
Cleaned that side up only to find the the side next to it was just as bad, plus had other things such as the ends of copper pipes, nails and crap.
I believe this has been here a long time. There's only one water pipe in the loft and it's such a short run plus it's insulation is intact, so I think this was from when there was a header tank in the loft which is long gone.
Needless to say I'll be setting up some traps just in case there's any more mice thinking about taking up winter residence in the loft.
Lifted some of the remaining boards and discovered some more mould underneath, I wasn't expecting it here.
This is above a different bathroom which doesn't have an extractor installed. That's a later job.....
Questionable wiring aside, here's where the moisture was getting in - through a small hole in the ceiling above the light fitting. It's amazing that so much moisture could permeate through the insulation but stands to reason as warm does move to cold air.
This is a bit of an odd find - an old box of matches with it's corner a bit chewed, still quite a few matches inside too.
Lift the insulation around it to reveal a lair.
The little critters have been stealing the insulation from the pipes and dragging it here to chew and break up for bedding. The matches might have been a bit extreme to get warm though.
Maybe removing the pipe insulation was part of their plan - to make the pipes freeze and burst thus putting out any fire. Mice are smart. And stupid. And soon dead.
Also note the lack of insulation here - the previous owners only laid two layers of what looks to be 50mm insulation. This is different from the stuff elsewhere oddly as well as foil backed plasterboard.
Cleaned that side up only to find the the side next to it was just as bad, plus had other things such as the ends of copper pipes, nails and crap.
I believe this has been here a long time. There's only one water pipe in the loft and it's such a short run plus it's insulation is intact, so I think this was from when there was a header tank in the loft which is long gone.
Needless to say I'll be setting up some traps just in case there's any more mice thinking about taking up winter residence in the loft.
I think the mice got in through the soffits before I replaced them and also two holes in the internal part of the wall cavity which I have yet to seal up. I had cavity wall insulation put in a few years ago so they're probably all happy snuggles up inside that instead.
Indeed. I shared it as I was honestly surprised at how much moisture leaked out of there. That bathroom really needs an extract fan so that job has moved up the list.
Crazy amount of modelling to indicate this
Could you not just replace with a new insulated hatch with ladder? Mine cost about 300 quid a couple years ago.
You mock, but the time planning and using SketchUp has really paid off
. I wouldn't have had a clue on what to order, plus it helps explain things.If the loft ladder was knackered I would definitely have replaced it and the hatch, but the ladder is fine so the gains don't seem worth the effort, time and cost. The PIR box will cost less than £50 to make and may even insulate better.
I am worse than you
Having done significant renovation of all my homes I've really come to value modern design software for its planning potential and to avoid rework years down the line. For my current home I moved from DIY grade software to purchasing pro level home architectural software despite its very high price and its been worth it. I modelled the existing house and have used it to plan so many updates, from structural changes to colour schemes and the style and position of new radiators, doors, windows etc.
Being able to view realisatic 3D views of all potential changes it so useful, and I've modelled down to even the joists/truss level, pipework and electrics/networking.
That sounds awesome, I could really get lost in that type of software! What software was it and how much is it? I really shouldn't ask as I'd spend more time on that than doing any work
.I checked out several products specifically for home architectural work as these understand how houses and their parts, fixtures and fittings are built and fit with each other. That makes them so much faster to use than the like of Revit or SketchUp.
I bought Chief Architect Premier, the cost was basically $3k USD when I purchased and $500-$600 a year for maintenance covering all upgrades. Sadly its now subscription only at $2k USD per year but existing users like me get the old style price as long as we never stop renewingI did feel a little better about the cost when I got some bathroom quotes (hilarious price so doing it myself) and my suggested layout plans and renders made theirs look like MS Paint despite them paying about the same per license per year.
They do have lesser versions and their Home Designer Pro gets a lot of the key features, but it had a few limitations that made me upgrade to the full version.
MS Paint lol!
That top tier software looks the business but quite a bit overkill my needs
. The Home Designer Pro does look good though and a bit more affordable. Must resist! I presume although being aimed at the American market it can still do metric measurements? Imperial would drive me insane.That is such a good feature. We have a north facing livingroom so the lighting isn't the best but there are options to improve it. I was considering putting in two long non-opening windows on the east wall but it's difficult to envisage it, how wide can/should they be etc. I've bookmarked that software, there are a few other projects that come to mind
.Lifted up more manky boards...
Binned some of the insulation due to the mould and mice detritus being impossible to vacuum off without sucking up an entire sheet of insulation. Sorting out loft hatch area and sizing up for the ductng.
Feeling quite fatigued today, not getting as much done as I'd hoped.
Binned some of the insulation due to the mould and mice detritus being impossible to vacuum off without sucking up an entire sheet of insulation. Sorting out loft hatch area and sizing up for the ductng.
Feeling quite fatigued today, not getting as much done as I'd hoped.
I was running a length of pipe for the condensate from the fan to an unused overflow pipe in the wall, but when I unblocked the pipe a ******* big wasp fell out of it. It looked dead but after poking it for signs of life it soon woke up and was a bit angry. Very angry!
It turns out that around this time of the year most wasps start to die off through lack of food and it is quite likely a queen wasp.
It's still up there as I high-tailed it out of there (had to leave, honest) but I'll be back and armed this time!
It turns out that around this time of the year most wasps start to die off through lack of food and it is quite likely a queen wasp.
It's still up there as I high-tailed it out of there (had to leave, honest) but I'll be back and armed this time!
No other option!
I dunno, but now you've made me call in the dropship.
Managed to get some decent time to work in the loft...
Mounted the extractor fan on a rubber mat, ran it's power/isolator and finished the ducting including the condensate outlet to the outside.
Thermal wrapped the ducting that would be above the insulation level and next to the wall. I also insulated the condensate line just in case that were to ever freeze.
Fitted all the legs and crossbeams for the loft flooring.
First layer of insulation is now down in this section. I decided not to separately insulation the long length of ducting as the final layer of insulation should keep it snug.
Almost finished...
Mounted the extractor fan on a rubber mat, ran it's power/isolator and finished the ducting including the condensate outlet to the outside.
Thermal wrapped the ducting that would be above the insulation level and next to the wall. I also insulated the condensate line just in case that were to ever freeze.
Fitted all the legs and crossbeams for the loft flooring.
First layer of insulation is now down in this section. I decided not to separately insulation the long length of ducting as the final layer of insulation should keep it snug.
Almost finished...
I've done a few bits and pieces but this post is about the outside of the loft....
Somebody was using the shower and I just happened to be outside and looked up at the vent as I couldn't hear it over the wind. The extraction fan was running but the surrounding area is looking a bit moist!
WTH?!
This is purely the moist air being extracted by the fan and I can only presume (and hope) that it's just condensing upon extraction and the wind is blowing back to the building making it wet?
There is no other source of water near there and it's bone dry on the loft side of the ducting although there is a cavity so who knows. I'll check it out tomorrow morning and see if it's dried out.
Really should have extracted through the roof but knowing my luck roofers that would have leaked anyway.
Somebody was using the shower and I just happened to be outside and looked up at the vent as I couldn't hear it over the wind. The extraction fan was running but the surrounding area is looking a bit moist!
WTH?!
This is purely the moist air being extracted by the fan and I can only presume (and hope) that it's just condensing upon extraction and the wind is blowing back to the building making it wet?
There is no other source of water near there and it's bone dry on the loft side of the ducting although there is a cavity so who knows. I'll check it out tomorrow morning and see if it's dried out.
Really should have extracted through the roof but knowing my luck roofers that would have leaked anyway.
Seems like a never ending battle with humidity! Even when you get it out the house it wants to get back in...
A little update for those interested, regarding the fan extraction.
It turns out (quite obviously really) that my ducting path was restricting airflow quite severely. It was quite the fail.
Count the number of bends here:
To sum the bends up: 90+90+45 (fan->) +90+45+90=exit. The restrictions really added up killing the flow and resulting in the moist air from the bathroom either not being thrown far enough or just lingering around the vent, resulting in the image you saw earlier:
Time to rip it out and start again but first a bit about this style of fan - they leak water when it condensates. No matter if you mount it horizontally or vertically with a condensation trap, when the moisture condenses it'll leak from the detachable spigots and run down between the pipe and insulation if it's wrapped. More concerning is that I even had moisture get through the hole for the wires to the control board and gather there.
Water and 240Vac is not a good thing and it did start to corrode the fan controller's circuit board causing a no run fault a few months ago. Cleaned and repaired the corroded joints and got it working again.
So no matter what you do with this type of fan water is going to condense inside it and leak from somewhere. Time to embrace that and just let the ******* thing leak!
I made a sump of sorts out of an old cat litter tray with some wooden braces across it with anti-vibration mounts to boot. Lined the tray and wooden braces with silver tape so they won't absorb any moisture.
Total overkill but got to try something huh?! I'll keep an eye on it and see how much it leaks and pools if any.
I also fitted an inline backdraft shutter to hopefully reduce the cold air entering the fan and ducting when the fan stops running. It will add some restriction but not much (hopefully!).
Finally, the new ducting routing path:
It's now only two 45 degree bends (and the backdraft shutter) instead of all the multiple 90's and 45 degree bends that reduced the airflow before.
I'll monitor it over time and see how it goes.
It turns out (quite obviously really) that my ducting path was restricting airflow quite severely. It was quite the fail.
Count the number of bends here:
To sum the bends up: 90+90+45 (fan->) +90+45+90=exit. The restrictions really added up killing the flow and resulting in the moist air from the bathroom either not being thrown far enough or just lingering around the vent, resulting in the image you saw earlier:
Time to rip it out and start again but first a bit about this style of fan - they leak water when it condensates. No matter if you mount it horizontally or vertically with a condensation trap, when the moisture condenses it'll leak from the detachable spigots and run down between the pipe and insulation if it's wrapped. More concerning is that I even had moisture get through the hole for the wires to the control board and gather there.
Water and 240Vac is not a good thing and it did start to corrode the fan controller's circuit board causing a no run fault a few months ago. Cleaned and repaired the corroded joints and got it working again.
So no matter what you do with this type of fan water is going to condense inside it and leak from somewhere. Time to embrace that and just let the ******* thing leak!
I made a sump of sorts out of an old cat litter tray with some wooden braces across it with anti-vibration mounts to boot. Lined the tray and wooden braces with silver tape so they won't absorb any moisture.
Total overkill but got to try something huh?!
I'll keep an eye on it and see how much it leaks and pools if any.I also fitted an inline backdraft shutter to hopefully reduce the cold air entering the fan and ducting when the fan stops running. It will add some restriction but not much (hopefully!).
Finally, the new ducting routing path:
It's now only two 45 degree bends (and the backdraft shutter) instead of all the multiple 90's and 45 degree bends that reduced the airflow before.
I'll monitor it over time and see how it goes.
Finally finished having found some time.
I did remove the backdraft shutter from the extractor vent as it was reducing the flow too much for my liking and there's shutters on the external vent anyway.
I'm happy with how the insulated loft hatch turned out. The lift-up lid will really prevent any heat and moisture from getting in to the loft from the house below.
Relocated the light switch for the loft lights to a more accessible place and also changed it to a Schneider illuminated switch so no more fumbling in the dark looking for it.
The lid of the insulated loft hatch made in to an inverted top hat of sorts so that it sits in the recess rather than just on it.
With the lid in position.
The hazard tape speaks for itself.
So gone from this:
To this:
More light, more insulation, better routed extractor venting but less space width and height wise. Time will tell if it was worth the effort!
Thanks for reading / looking at the pictures.
I did remove the backdraft shutter from the extractor vent as it was reducing the flow too much for my liking and there's shutters on the external vent anyway.
I'm happy with how the insulated loft hatch turned out. The lift-up lid will really prevent any heat and moisture from getting in to the loft from the house below.
Relocated the light switch for the loft lights to a more accessible place and also changed it to a Schneider illuminated switch so no more fumbling in the dark looking for it.
The lid of the insulated loft hatch made in to an inverted top hat of sorts so that it sits in the recess rather than just on it.
With the lid in position.
The hazard tape speaks for itself
.So gone from this:
To this:
More light, more insulation, better routed extractor venting but less space width and height wise. Time will tell if it was worth the effort!
Thanks for reading / looking at the pictures
.The main positive is the satisfaction and knowing its all done right
Definitely right!
Moving on to the next job....!
Nothing exciting, just storage although the lad has asked if he could live up there
.It was more about improving the insulation and fixing the bodges of the previous owner (and some of my mistakes!).