Red Bull Racing / Toro Rosso

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Just wondered now that it's been going for a few seasons, how everyone feels about Red Bull effectively having two teams on the grid?

It's no secret we've seen countless times where TR move over for RBR. Is that really fair to the rest of the grid?

RBR effectively have +2 positions already should they ever have to start at the back of the pack. They could potentially (not saying they do, but who knows) use TR to hold up the leaders when they are being lapped.

It all just seems a bit dodgy to me.

Thoughts?

PS: don't see this as a bitter topic just because RBR won both titles. I'm just looking from a neutral PoV here.
 
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There is no rule against owning more than one team, so that's a non issue.

Holding up drivers when being lapped is subject to the very strict blue flag rules, so any window to do so is very small without then falling foul and receiving a penalty.

Theres nothing dodgy about it. Any F1 team is entitled to buy another team if they want. There are lots of cross team relationships too. Marussia have technical ties with McLaren, Ferrari have their engine customers. Lots of teams with young driver programs have drivers in other teams. I guarantee that if Riccardo was still in the HRT this year he would have jumped out the way for Vettel in the same way he did in the Toro Rosso.

This whole thing just seems to be sour grapes from people desperately clutching at reasons why Vettel doesn't deserver to win. HRTs are 'expected' to get out of the way, team mates are 'expected' to help, yet Toro Rossos letting Red Bulls past is 'cheating'. How do we know that Ferrari wouldn't have pulled on the engine supplier strings on the Toro Rossos should Alonso have needed them to get out of his way?

Until there is a rule against owning more than one team, its perfectly legal. Wont stop people complaining about it though.

I see absolutely no issue with it.
 
Ferrari have their engine customers, oh yeah a Torro Rosso lol.....and Sauber who proved at Monza they have no problems beating Ferrari.
 
You find that certain back markers will give some drivers a harder time than others, although there are obvious links with Toro Rosso and Red Bull.
For example MS gave SV a clean pass in the last race of the season. This happened a lot this year, but because the races are not quite as important nobody really cared or picked it up.
 
I dont really like the fact that your team mate can be told what to do, let alone another team. It leaves a bad taste everytime Torro Rosso move over for Red Bull.. Im glad people feel the same
 
i dont like it either, and ferrari may have customer team in sauber that would move over in a final race ( probably nullified by the number of renault powered cars whom might have more interest in supporting their engine supplier) but i think the difference is were it any other race they wouldnt move over so easily, whilst torro rosso will move over regardless of which race. for most of the year, should a red bull find itself down the grid for whatever reason they have two cars less to pass, whilst everyone else has two cars more to hold them up. Its going to have some effect on the outcome, and its hardly surprising that when the end result is so close like it was this year, its easy to see why so many people dont like it, it isnt vettels fault that torro rosso's automatically get out of his way to make things easier, but it does devalue the result.

2010, and 2012 drivers championship were close enough that it could easily be argued they were decided by the loyalty's of other teams and drivers, rather than the two drivers capable of winning, its pointless arguing about it but it is there.
 
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I'm not saying there's anything illegal in it, I'm just saying it's a little unfair.

For all we know, Toro Rosso will develop a stunning car next season and have a hand higher up the field. It'll be a even more of an issue then.
 
The "unsporting" argument falls into the same category as when people claim things are "against the spirit of the rules". It means nothing, and usually comes from people who are bitter that they didn't think of it themselves.

I'm sure most of the midfield teams would welcome the the investment from a top team if any of them think owning more than 1 team is that much of an advantage.
 
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The "unsporting" argument falls into the same category as when people claim things are "against the spirit of the rules". It means nothing, and usually comes from people who are bitter that they didn't think of it themselves.

I'm sure most of the midfield teams would welcome the the investment from a top team if any of them think owning more than 1 team is that much of an advantage.

Complete tosh, the former anyway, in the case of Red Bull's wing, every single rule is trying to prevent flexi wings and maintain a minimum height, Red Bull pass the tests with a part that breaches every single intent of the rules. It is against the spirit of the rules. Are Red Bull, or the FIA to blame, bit of both, why didn't EVERY team make a wing that broke the rule but passed the test? Because other people considered it to be against the rules, they were told, don't make a flexi wing, not "make a flexi wing that passes our don't make a flexi wing rules".

It's no different to taking the licence plate off your car and blowing a red light, they can't prove it was your car without the licence plate, you still broke the rule.

Red Bull blatantly and consistently go against every intent of the law with loop holes, most teams do this to a degree, Red Bull seem to do this more than anyone else. While most rules are their to be broken, most people tip toe across the line and try and get away with it, Red Bull go over the line so far they can't see the line anymore.

Article 3.15 covers movable bodywork as follows:

“With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane), the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance:

“Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom):

“Must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car:

“Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.

“No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.”

Those aren't the current rules(though they may be no/not much different). The intent is patently clear to anyone being sensible, the wing should not move, full stop, they just don't test for it sufficiently, twice that I can recall in the past 3 years they've changed the test in the season to try and catch the Red Bull cheating, they DIDN'T change the rule, just the test, why, because everyone who isn't blind can see Red Bull are cheating, they are just passing the test, nothing more or less. If the FIA didn't think they were breaking the rule, why try and change the test to catch them? For at least 2-3 years they have just constantly said, in every way possible, don't move the damn wing, don't have moveable aero parts, do not flex the wing, do not move the wing, make it rigid. Red Bull have done everything possible to move that damn wing, while passing the ridiculously awful test.

Oh,

Q: How and why have the tests for front wing deflection changed?
CW: The rules state the wings (as well as all other parts of the bodywork) must be rigid. We have halved the permitted deflection. Previously the wing was tested with a 1kN load and allowed to deflect 20mm. As a result of this the teams were testing wings until they found a design that deflected 19.9mm under a 1kN load. Our allowances are only a guideline for us and we felt the teams were operating outside the spirit of the rules and clearly designing their wings with flexibility in mind. In our view Article 3.15 takes precedence over Article 3.17 where the deflection limits are quantified. Article 3.17.8 allows us to introduce new tests if we feel our guidelines are not being following in an appropriate manner. The new test therefore moves the pressure point rearwards by 10mm and inboard by 5mm with the permitted deflection reduced to 10mm. We have also told the teams that we may apply the load to just one side of the front wing, an asymmetrical test.

Charlie on the changes to the rules for 2012... he specifically states that teams were operating to the letter of the test to get maximum deflection and the intention of the test and rule was for a RIGID< completely rigid wing, nothing less, the test was to allow leeway, not to be met exactly. Every change in rules on wings, every test change, rigid wings, full stop, that is the rule, that is the intent of the rule, minimum height above the ground and no flex, no tilt, no movement AT ALL is the intent of the rule. Red Bull purposefully break all of those, flex, tilt and reduce min height off the ground. Red Bull are clever, but its hard to know how clever, did they make the best wing, or were the most willing to break the rule, what would other teams have done if they were allowed to make any kind of flexi wing, would Red Bull's be any better than it is, who knows.

FIA needs to get better with testing, took them what 2 years to add slightly better tests, then red Bull just made a tilt wing instead of flexi wing. FIA needs to be able to use video evidence against people who so blatantly break the rules, and also. In regards to teams going for a 19.1mm deflection rather than 20mm, when the rules intended them to aim for 0mm deflection, they need to introduce some kinda fine or penalty for these situations where teams purposefully work against the rules.

I don't actually like the rule, I don't care about flexi wing, I love how innovative Red Bull are, but the field needs to be playing with the same goalposts. Caterham can't afford to spend 5mil developing a flexi wing that might be deemed illegal, so they play within the bounds of the laws, Red Bull can afford to spend 5mil on the wing, and if the FIA judged it illegal at some stage, spend 5mil more on a non rule breaking version, spend money breaking rules simply because they have the money, its unsporting.

Everyone can legally make a flexi wing so everyone develops one, and the best one wins, or there is a rule, and teams get punished for breaking it. red Bull cheat, a lot, and its very very clearly against the rules, but the FIA don't do anything about it. Next year we might have a new test that checks for tilting.


On TR, I do and don't care, I find the whole thing stupid to be honest. THe rules preventing them using the same chassis, for a sport determined to reduce costs, they've substantially increased the cost of running a second team. Yeah they let him pass easy, other teams let other drivers pass easy, friendships, rivalry, revenge for a previous block/race/crash, has always been a part of F1, and any rules to prevent any driver doing it would be unenforceable. Schumi not allowed to let Vettel past, he'll just brake late on a corner, go deep make a "mistake", and let him past, how would you rule on intent there?
 
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Again with the rule that doesnt exist :rolleyes:

The tests ARE the rule, and the Red Bull wing passes them.
 
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3.17 specifies the tests, and Red Bull pass them all.

The Red Bull wings do not break any of the rules in the regulations. They may go against the 'principle' that the rules are there to enforce, but Formula 1 doesn't use a principles based regulatory system, it uses a rules based one.
 
Particularly last year, I often thought, if TR where still using older spec RB cars, the 2011 torror rosso would effecivly of been a slightly slower RB7 and possibly have finished second in the championship (when you consider how much faster the RB7 was especially at the start of the season). I think if that was still the case the TR/RBR relationship would have been a major concern.

As it is I dont see anything ''wrong'' with it, nothing to stop other teams doing it, but you can see how such a system could be abused.

As far as Ferrari's customer cars moving over, has that ever actually happened (or for any engine supplier)? I dont think it is quite the same thing that RBR and TR have.
 
Maybe not engine customers, but there are a lot of ties through things like young driver programs that mean there are allegiances that could be called upon. Like I said RBR would have had a link to pull on at HRT with Ricardo there last year should they have needed it. I imagine if Mercedes were in a title fighting position Di Resta may have found him self being called upon. There's sponsor ties too. Its not like every team on the grid is completely independant and the only teams with a connection are RBR and Toro Rosso.
 
I seem to recall a similar ruckus earlier this year when Perez was catching Alonso hand over fist and folks on here were hooting about orders from Ferrari to Sauber about holding him back....
 
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