Resigning - issue with training fees

Lostkat · 10 May 2006 at 17:54

I am leaving my current employer next Friday. I owe them £900 for my college course (you have to sign an agreement saying you will pay the course money back if you leave within 2 years of completing the course). My new employer will be paying these fees upon joining the company.

The T&C's say that the money will be "deducted from final pay or invoiced as appropriate".

Now, since I will only be receiving partial pay for the month, I thought that deducting £900 from my salary (leaving me with virtually £0) was rather unappropriate, and asked HR if I could pay via invoice at a later date. I was told no.

I was told that the money would be deducted from my pay. When I asked for an invoice, I was told that "it will show on your payslip". I told HR that this was unacceptable, and offered to pay the money by cheque so that I could get a proper invoice & receipt to prove payment of fees to my new employer. However, HR seem to be having a problem with this. I've been told that I'll get a receipt, but probably not an invoice.

I'm now worried that my new employer won't accept just a receipt for my college fees. I've called them today, but the guy I need to speak to is out of the country, and I'm paying this money to my new employer tomorrow so I need an answer.

Has anyone been through this before? Will a receipt detailing what the payment was for be acceptable to my new company? Are they legally obliged to provide me with an invoice when requested? Is there anything I can do to ensure that everything will be OK when I get to my new employer? £900 is a lot of money, and I really can't afford to lose it.

Any sensible help/advice would be gratefully appreciated.

stoofa · 10 May 2006 at 18:07

I guess it all depends on how trusting the new company is.
It doesn't surprise me that the company you are leaving are being "awkward" in your eyes.
However you need to remember that they obviously thought you were going to stick around for a while yet hence they sent you on courses etc.
It's not just the money aspect - so they will want to make sure you owe them nothing as you leave.

I too left a company after two years and the company I was leaving were to charge me around £500 for some courses I'd been on.
The company I was moving to had already agreed to cover these fees.
My final pay slip said "Course Deductions" and the amount.
I simply took that to payroll/finance at the company I was moving to along with my P45 and they sorted out very quickly.
Well....I had to wait until my first pay from the new company which did leave things tight for a month, but it was only one month and I did contact my bank before hand to explain the situation and got a free £500 overdraft to cover things.

KaHn · 10 May 2006 at 18:09

I would suggest talking to a manager or someone along those lines, as HR seem to have a nack of ******* the simplest of jobs up.

Try to explain to them that it is part of your contract to request them via invoice and that they will be breaching this if they do not comply to it, which in sense means you do not have to pay at all(probs not best to threaten with this).

But I dont see how it would make the slighest bit of difference to them.

Hope it all goes well

KaHn

Raumarik · 10 May 2006 at 18:11

sod your existing employer, talk to your new one and explain the situation, they're the only ones that will try to help you out and the only ones you really have to work with from now on.

Lostkat · 10 May 2006 at 18:27

I have no issue with paying them. I signed a contract and owe them the money, simple as. I am highly annoyed that they're taking it off me right this instant, rather than invoicing me when I left (as they did with a friend of mine), but that's another issue entirely.

The question I am asking is am I legally entitled to request an invoice off them tomorrow before I pay them? I know I am getting a receipt, but they don't seem to want to give me the invoice. Will my receipt cover me instead of an invoice?

They don't actually seem to know what I owe them. When I handed in my notice I asked two questions (1) How much will my final pay be? and (2) How do I sort out payment of my CIPS course? They had to come to me and ask how much I owed. I had to give them the full break down. They don't even seem to have the paperwork for it. In retrospect I wish I'd said nothing. That's the price you pay for being honest I guess.

Lostkat · 10 May 2006 at 18:30

KaHn said:
I would suggest talking to a manager or someone along those lines, as HR seem to have a nack of ******* the simplest of jobs up.

I spoke to my manager and his attitude was little more than apathy to be honest. It's amazing how attitudes change when you leave the company. Last week he was telling me what a valued member of staff I was etc.

KaHn · 10 May 2006 at 18:40

Lostkat said:
I spoke to my manager and his attitude was little more than apathy to be honest. It's amazing how attitudes change when you leave the company. Last week he was telling me what a valued member of staff I was etc.

People are such fickle things. I really annoys me and I hope you never have to deal with them again

Well just think next week you won't be working for the **** holes

KaHn

Takhisis · 10 May 2006 at 19:02

I'm guessing it would depend what was stated in the agreement you originally signed; if it says it'll be deducted then you're screwed, if it doesn't say anything then I can't see how they have any legal right to just take the money and therefore you should be entitled to both an invoice and receipt.

Cybermyk · 10 May 2006 at 19:19

I don't think either your old employer can make a deduction from your salary without providing evidence of your liability or expenditure any more than your new employer can go back on it's contractural obligation to pay the fees.

I would request a copy reciept from the college and just ensure communication is maintained with the HR and managers of your employers until the matter is resolved.

Try not to worry too much, changing jobs is stressful enough

doopydug · 10 May 2006 at 23:19

If you want your old employer to give you an invoice, then they will have to charge VAT on the top. As i doubt that you, too are VAT registered, you would have to pay an extra 17.5%.

Just let them deduct it and give you a receipt, after all, they did pay the fees without question or delay I bet?

Takhisis · 11 May 2006 at 07:15

doopydug said:
If you want your old employer to give you an invoice, then they will have to charge VAT on the top. As i doubt that you, too are VAT registered, you would have to pay an extra 17.5%.

No they wouldn't and even if for some reason they had to include a space for VAT they would just put 0%

Nismo · 11 May 2006 at 07:22

Sounds like typical HR ******** :/

Have you talked to the HR manager yet? Try to go as high as possible in relation to that department, and explain the situation. It seems totally unreasonable for them to just whip it off you as soon as you walk out the door.

VIRII · 11 May 2006 at 07:26

When you buy a product you are not legally entitled to a receipt. In other words the shop is not obliged to provide one so I doubt that they are.

You could write to them and request a reply in writing detailing how much is going to be deducted from your final pay packet and for what reason. I think they would find that request harder to ignore.

I am sure the new employer will be accomodating and if all else fails your pay slip will detail the deduction.

Lostkat · 11 May 2006 at 07:29

Takhisis said:
No they wouldn't and even if for some reason they had to include a space for VAT they would just put 0%

Yep. VAT has already been paid anyway. The £900 is the absolute value that I owe.

My HR department are universally hated throughout the business. They're pretty much incompetent. I'm so angry about this that I could go into a 10 page rant, but I won't. I'll just seethe quietly.

If they are too incompetent to provide me with an invoice, I'm going to ask for that in writing along with a statement of what I owe, and what for. I'll then get a receipt for it all.

And to make things worse, my chequebook has run out

RBS haven't bothered sending me a new one, so I need to go down to the bank today to withdraw £900. I'm going to insist someone comes with me, because I'm not walking through town with £900 in my purse.

Don't think this could get much worse to be honest

Lostkat · 11 May 2006 at 07:30

VIRII said:
When you buy a product you are not legally entitled to a receipt. In other words the shop is not obliged to provide one so I doubt that they are.

I've already been told I will get a receipt for it. They're a multimillion bluechip organisation, so they shouldn't have an issue with that one

Takhisis · 11 May 2006 at 07:31

Have you double checked what the agreement you signed said?

Lostkat · 11 May 2006 at 07:36

Takhisis said:
Have you double checked what the agreement you signed said?

"I agree that any outstanding money owed to me as a result of this plan can be deducted from my salary or invoiced to me as appropriate"

It also says "The company will pay for the cost of the course required by the college. However in the event that you withdraw from the course, before its completion, you will be required to reimburse caterpillar the full amount"
It says 'cost of the course'. If I'm reading that correctly, this shouldn't include exams or books? Hmmm

Takhisis · 11 May 2006 at 07:43

Lostkat said:
"I agree that any outstanding money owed to me as a result of this plan can be deducted from my salary or invoiced to me as appropriate"

It also says "The company will pay for the cost of the course required by the college. However in the event that you withdraw from the course, before its completion, you will be required to reimburse caterpillar the full amount"
It says 'cost of the course'. If I'm reading that correctly, this shouldn't include exams or books? Hmmm

That is actually quite badly worded from their point of view - it gives you the option to be invoiced or have it deducted so by saying you can't have an invoice they are breaking their own contract making it null and void (i.e - no money for them).
And as you pointed out it only states the cost of the course - when I had to create a training contract for my work, I had to include the fact that if they left within 12 months they would be expected to pay back the "full costing of the course including examination and certification fees and the cost of any resources purchased"

Burbleflop · 11 May 2006 at 07:46

Lostkat said:
"I agree that any outstanding money owed to me as a result of this plan can be deducted from my salary or invoiced to me as appropriate"

It also says "The company will pay for the cost of the course required by the college. However in the event that you withdraw from the course, before its completion, you will be required to reimburse caterpillar the full amount"
It says 'cost of the course'. If I'm reading that correctly, this shouldn't include exams or books? Hmmm

I know it'll vary from company to company, but I define 'the cost of the course' to be the total cost of the course, so that's the payment to the college, books, exams and any other stuff.

I'd ask for clarification of what 'the course' consists of.

The wording sounds very strange to me - "I agree that any outstanding money owed to me as a result of this plan can be deducted from my salary or invoiced to me as appropriate" - to me it says that any money owed to you (not the company) will be deducted from your salary. If that is actually what it says, then I would put in writing that you are not owed any money as a result of the college course, quote the relevant bit from their T's & C's then get some legal advise should they take the money from you.

Going back to what you said earlier, it happens at my place that when people leave, the attitude towards them changes drastically. Personally I think that stinks and it isn't something I let happen in my department.

Bar · 11 May 2006 at 08:05

The company will pay for the cost of the course required by the college. However in the event that you withdraw from the course, before its completion, you will be required to reimburse caterpillar the full amount

This seems to state that the penalty will only apply if you withdraw during the course. Have you actually completed the course?

Wherever I have worked it has been a pro-rata upto two years after the course finishs that any training expenditure has had to be repaid.