RGB Full Range - Does your TV support it?

I've got it enabled on my Toshiba Regza 32C as there didn't seem to be any difference.

Would be nice to know if I should disable it though without going through all the testing.
 
Nismo said:
I've got it enabled on my Toshiba Regza 32C as there didn't seem to be any difference.

Would be nice to know if I should disable it though without going through all the testing.
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I have 'Black stretch' on my Tosh, makes a huge difference, wether this is the same as full RGB remains to be seen.
 
tested on my Hannspree XV 37 - needs to be set to limited.

On full i couldnt see any numbers, on limited i could see them all with brightness adjustments.
 
In FULL mode the source - which is 16-235 - is remapped to 0-255 - so blacks which are encoded on the BluRay source at level 16, are not output at 16 and instead reduced to 0. Whites which are encoded on the BluRay source at level 235 are scaled to hit 255. Anything below 16 or above 235 (so called Blacker than Black and Whiter than White information) is clipped in FULL mode - it is NOT passed.

The key thing to understand is that broadcast TV, DVDs, HD-DVDs and BluRay are mastered with black at 16 and White at 235 (whether RGB or YCrCb representation are used - and Cr Cb are 16-240 centred around 127) These are known as studio or broadcast levels - and have a narrower black-to-white range to allow for below-black and above-white excursions to be carried without clipping - which is an important issue when you are mixing analogue and video sources (Transitions can cause spikes in analogue circuitry that will go past black and white levels, if these are clipped, they will cause ringing - i.e. artificial black/white edge distortion - when converted back to analogue.)

The fact that FULL and LIMITED are not simply different ways of displaying a signal with the same range - as you suggest - is clearly visible when you flip between modes - as in FULL mode the black level drops and white level increases. This is NOT what would happen if the switch was simply between passing <16 and >235 or not and keeping black at 16 and white at 235 - you would get no black or white level shift. But you do.

Super White is the option that allows whiter-than-white to be passed - not FULL.

FULL is simply an option Sony added to remap 16-235 studio levels to the older DVI RGB standard (previously uncatered for in PS3) using PC levels of 0-255. It is NOT to do with passing blacker than black or whiter than white - as it clips <16 and >235 levels in the remap process. This is important for projectors and owners of older HDTVs with DVI inputs added for use with PCs rather than video sources.
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Full mode remaps 16-235 to 0-255 but it cuts off anything between 0-15 and 236-255. that means if you are watching a bluray then full would actually discard that information - not ideal, same for ps3 games. this would make sense since when switching to full from limited on my ps3, i have to increase the brightness by exactly 16 points to see the same black levels in the tests (on my sony 40w2000)

this is one area where it gets VERY confusing:o best thing if you have a ps3 is to set the display output to automatic so it can switch between the two which in theory should choose full RGB for dvd playback and leave Hd material and games unmolested.


in theory. i have sat down and experimented with my ps3 on this yet.
 
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i have a 40w2000:)

for blurays, setting to automatic choses Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr for output (component video, in otherwords). without superwhite on this is esentially the same as RGB limited output for bluray. ie - as it should be.
 
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yes it does, ive already said this in post #31. the issue isnt whether your tv supports it, itw whether you should be using it at all. im actually going to do some tests later on with a load of photos and work this all out, because there isnt a clear answer anywhere as far as i can see.


from what ive just learned from a little fillding with my ps3 and display, RBG full isnt needed. i get an output as good as i possible can for games, dvd and bluray using rgb limited and setting my 40w2000 to a brightness of 43.
 
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Dutch Guy said:
So, in other words, Full is only good for SD DVD's and bad for BR DVD's and games?
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im working on a complete answer lol for now im just going to post what i find.

When you select RGB FULL you will immediately see increased contrast over RGB Limited or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr. This is because the level of absolute black and white have been stretched (leaving no headroom for BTB and WTW). The increase in percieved contrast is actually due to blacks being crushed just like enabling black enhancement on most sets. You need to recalibrate and increase brightness when changing to RGB FULL before evaluating. You should find that there is no increase in PQ when using RGB FULL after recalibrating.

There is no reason to use RGB Full unless you are using a monitor (usually DVI) that does not support Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr or RGB Limited.
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it seems that RGB full is actually there for when you're using a monitor that cant work a 16-235 colourspace, on a tv that can you shouldnt need to use it. which is the opposite of general understanding.

edit: apparently blurays and dvd's are both encoded with the 16-235 colour space so FULL shouldnt need to be used at all on a tv.



it seems to be that the correct answer is after calibration, both limited and full should look identical for movies. i am not sure about games yet
 
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I think unless your 100% sure your TV supports it, and from my understanding a very small percentage actually do, Your better off leaving this set to Limited in the Display options of the PS3 or you will be crushing your blacks and loosing lots of detail in dark areas.

Edit: James.Miller - I believe on your TV if you set the colour range to Wide - you are effectively allowing your TV to pass 0-255 range, so RGB Full would look correct? I don't have your TV so not sure?
 
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Inoshishi said:
I think unless your 100% sure your TV supports it, and from my understanding a very small percentage actually do, Your better off leaving this set to Limited in the Display options of the PS3 or you will be crushing your blacks and loosing lots of detail in dark areas.

Edit: James.Miller - I believe on your TV if you set the colour range to Wide - you are effectively allowing your TV to pass 0-255 range, so RGB Full would look correct? I don't have your TV so not sure?
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wide. hmm, i could check this.


anyway there's a great big long thread on it over at avsforum. in the end, they realised that limited on a limited tv will look exactly the same as full on a full display. ie waste of time really. BR and dvd's arent encoded with BTB or WTW, games arent either. so you either do or you do, its up to you. Full support is there too add support for lcd monitors which expect 0-255. if you arent using one, dont bother with it.


the important thing is to calibrate to whatever you choose. for me, since i run everything through the amp to the tv, i calibrated for limited so my levels would be the same for everything else plugged in to the amp (wii, V+ ect) and it looks GREAT.
 
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