'Rich Privilege'

[dr_volki]

House share? You'd save loads of money over renting a house/flat as a couple. Alternatively more somewhere cheaper.

There are always ways, you just need to put the effort in (which is a common theme of the successful people I meet).

i like my privacy so house share ain't an option, already have to put up with the mrs
moving somewhere cheaper? only place cheaper in reading is one rough area, so no thank you again

not moaning anyway i know my situation. the only hard thing for me is getting the deposit, paying the mortgage won't be the problem

 

[Amp34]

I've never said that.

As for your bet, you would lose it.

http://www.economicshelp.org/macroeconomics/inequality/causes_poverty/

Notice how people choosing to do drugs etc. does not make it into the top 5 causes of poverty.

Interesting link.

Inequality in Wages and Earnings Growth

Workers with high levels of skills and qualifications will be in demand and therefore will be able to gain higher wages. However those with low skills will find themselves in low paid jobs or even unemployed.

Why do they have low skills? Can they not train in something that will help them gain skills and therefore become more in demand? It doesn't have to be academic, the trades pay well for example.

Falling Relative value of State Benefits

Pensions and other benefits are index linked (this means rising in line with inflation) This tends to be less than wages which increase faster than inflation. Therefore those dependent on benefits will lag behind other members of society

Disregarding pensions (and disabilities* etc.)as a different matter this is intrinsically linked to 1. If benefits are the only way you can stay warm and eat then maybe you need to be looking at why you you are on such low income?

Higher levels of Structural and Long term Unemployment.

Unemployment is the biggest cause of poverty in the UK because people rely only on benefits

· 65% of the poor are not in work
· In the 1980s and early 1990s unemployment was high, however in 2003 it has fallen below 1 million (UK claimant count) But increased again in 2009, 2010.

Unemployment is also linked to one. Why are you unemployed? If it's for short periods then you probably aren't going to in relative poverty for long either. If you are long term unemployed then perhaps you need to look at why you cannot get employment. Is it lack of skills or something more personal? You may just be unlucky and unemployed during a major downturn were there are millions of unemployed, but that doesn't last that long. If by the end of the downturn you have been out of the industry you use to work in too long then do you need to look at retraining or getting a job elsewhere?

Regressive Taxes.

Tax changes in the 1980s and 1990s have put a higher burden of tax on the poor. There has been a shift in taxes from progressive income tax to regressive, indirect Taxes, therefore causing an increase in inequality

I'd love to know who came up with the terms regressive and progressive. But I agree in this instance. A simpler, flatter tax system (with a simple tax free limit) without lots of stealth taxes would definitely help with the burden of %tax. However it's not progressive in the slightest to tax those on higher incomes a significantly higher percentage...

Inheritance

This allows wealth inequality to be passed on and is quite important due to the housing market.

What are the actual statistics on this and how does it compare to government policy that has forced house prices up (the incessant need for "growth" and increasing that growth by increasing house prices).

The reality is much of that link mentions things that could be solved by retraining and increasing your employability. Why aren't people doing that?

*Although as mentioned before, disability is a road hump, not a shut door. Being blind or in a wheelchair (as an example) does not mean you cannot work, or be successful. It does however build significant roadblocks.

Poor people are poor for many reasons but the main ones are the failures of society and the financial/political systems it uses.

Care to explain how that is the case? I certainly agree there is more than one reason people are poor, however to just do the usual "it's almost always everyone else fault" is a poor excuse.

 

[Amp34]

Personally or in general?

Because personally my parents came to this country without a pot to **** in and I didn't know a single important person.

Generally, it was aimed at Cheesy to answer.

i like my privacy so house share ain't an option, already have to put up with the mrs
moving somewhere cheaper? only place cheaper in reading is one rough area, so no thank you again

not moaning anyway i know my situation. the only hard thing for me is getting the deposit, paying the mortgage won't be the problem

So it probably is achievable for you, you just don't want to have to suffer to achieve it. The person you quoted was living with parents to be able to get that deposit, i'm sure he didn't want to...

 

[J.T]

You are right, not doing well at school isn't necessarily related to effort. However just because you don't do well at school doesn't mean you can't be successful after school (and those people are probably living perfectly comfortable lives).

The problem is the people that don't try at school. Many of those won't try after either. Personally I think a large part of that is parents and their dedication, not anything to do with money or being 'rich'.

I didn't try at school at all and in fact left at 15 with no GCSE's at all and didn't go in to further education as frankly I was a waste of space.

I bummed around for around 5 years then all of a sudden one day I had enough of going nowhere fast and decided to get my act together.

I got a job in a shop on very low wages which gave me a confidence boost enough that after a couple of years there I applied for an office job as a Data entry clerk.

Fast forward a lot of years and I still work for that same company but I have worked my way up and am now a senior member of the IT team on a very good wage with a 3 bed house, car and a wonderful 'her in doors' and 3 great (most of the time) children.

I had no help starting out, no bump start from inheritance no privilege and not much in the way of luck and I started out as lazy... and I did alright.

I guess what I am trying to say is a lot of people (yes I know not all!) hide behind excuses as to why they haven't done well or why they can't improve their situation and blame others as it's far easier than actually doing something about it.

 

[Housey]

I think people need to spend less time trying to analyse how to equalise the impossible. Some people will earn more than others in any capitalist culture and some people will seek to pay less than their fair share. Many people will also seek to blame everyone but themselves or find a rationale they feel comfy with to explain why those who do well are lucky and those who don't are unlucky.

Until you appreciate that actually, we have a set of common rules that apply to all, but the starting position can be very different you are missing the point. Just because you start at the back of the grid does not mean you can't win and just because you are on pole doesn't mean you won't crash and burn. The world isn't and cant be fair and rosy for the everyone, if you think it can you are deluded as you are if you think all poor people are useless and all rich people are lucky. These debates are usually predicated on that same baseline, it's a pointless debate.

A fair share means we all have MUCH less. You either play the game or sit there moaning why all those around you with more stuff are lucky or privileged. You can choose to analyse in the minutiae but you simply cant apply an "all rich this all poor that" argument. Some people have talent, some people are useless. Experience has shown me that most people have an ability to be successful but not all are able to capture it. Some due to being unlucky, most because frankly they don't know how to or are world class at missing the opportunity or, often, can't be arsed.

I would never position myself as wealthy, for I am not. I am in the top 1%, according to some statistics governments produce, but frankly having seen real money I am FAR from privileged an miles from rich. I had working class origins, I was useless at school due to being lazy but I found that stuff that interested me gave me massive focus and passion. I saw lots of people with many more academic talent fail. I saw many people with much better upbringings do less well but I also saw some with nothing and who were even worse at school do really well. In the main however most people are happy with their lives and are where they should be based on the effort they have expelled of for the simple fact that's what they aspire to be, they don't need more, they are happy. It's the people at both extremes who are usually the most vociferous in these debates. The had it all through others success and the have nothing though being lazy wasters but feel the are owed it because.

We should all pay our fare share. I too get angry at corporations and people not playing ball but again, people at all ends of the scale try to cheat the system so poor people claiming benefit whilst having jobs on the side or worse, sickness benefit are just as bad in my book as bankers hiding money off shore. Of course people find it easier to throw anger at the bankers as the numbers are so huge without appreciating that many do it because they are tired of supporting the aforementioned low end cheaters. Vicious circle but you can't tax the rich to make the poor better off, it has never and will never work as the rich will go to a place where there is more of them and you soon realise how hard the world can be when the people at the top take THEIR money out of OUR system.

 

[J.T]

Very well put Housey.

Same as I am saying but much better presented than mine! LOL

 

[robgmun]

+1

Fantastic post

 

[Deleted member 66701]

in any capitalist culture

There's the problem that needs solving.

 

[Housey]

There's the problem that needs solving.

Totally impossible.

 

[TJM]

I guess what I am trying to say is a lot of people (yes I know not all!) hide behind excuses as to why they haven't done well or why they can't improve their situation and blame others as it's far easier than actually doing something about it.

If everyone made 'good' life choices, would everyone be financially successful?

It is absurd to blame the poor for being poor when our economic system guarantees (or demands) that some people, normally a great many, will be left with little or nothing. All of the wealth that is hoarded by the rich was obtained at someone else's expense.

Totally impossible.

Capitalism has existed for only the tiniest sliver of humanity's history. We have lived without it and will inevitably do so again.

 

[Housey]

If everyone made 'good' life choices, would everyone be financially successful?

It is absurd to blame the poor for being poor when our economic system guarantees (or demands) that some people, normally a great many, will be left with little or nothing. All of the wealth that is hoarded by the rich was obtained at someone else's expense.

What about the cash that is generated?

 

[Housey]

If everyone made 'good' life choices, would everyone be financially successful?

It is absurd to blame the poor for being poor when our economic system guarantees (or demands) that some people, normally a great many, will be left with little or nothing. All of the wealth that is hoarded by the rich was obtained at someone else's expense.


Capitalism has existed for only the tiniest sliver of humanity's history. We have lived without it and will inevitably do so again.

The PC arrived in the 80's, the car about 100 years ago, the aircraft a bit less. You can't uninvent certain things. Come up with something better, off you go.

 

[Richdog]

If everyone made 'good' life choices, would everyone be financially successful?

It is absurd to blame the poor for being poor when our economic system guarantees (or demands) that some people, normally a great many, will be left with little or nothing. All of the wealth that is hoarded by the rich was obtained at someone else's expense.


Capitalism has existed for only the tiniest sliver of humanity's history. We have lived without it and will inevitably do so again.

Whaaaat? People have NEVER had it so good. At every notable stage in civlised history the UK has been run by royalty and aristocrats, with the poor generally left in squalor with almost ZERO chance to make something of themselves. Compare that to nowadays where celebrities often come from the most common of roots, and where almost everyone has at least the chance of a university education if they want it badly enough. Almost everyone is provided for on some basic level.

Are you seriously telling us that there was any point in the UK's history that was more "fair" and had a chance at a safer and more productive than it has now?

 

[Amp34]

Capitalism has existed for only the tiniest sliver of humanity's history. We have lived without it and will inevitably do so again.

And before that everyone lived in small groups made up of extended families. Everyone knew each other in the groups and shared things around.

That doesn't work now as the small groups have become millions of people where you only know a tiny percentage. There is no way sharing cultures will ever work on that scale, which is why you end up with *******ised socialism like soviet Russia and N Korea, with super rich and mega poor.

The only alternative is to go back to small communities looking after themselves and not sharing with larger groups of people they don't know. Why would people work to look after people they don't know and will never meet? That's why capitalism ended up being the defacto system of nations. There are still collectives, small tribes or groups of people all over the world live like that (generally more in developing countries), but it doesn't extend past people they know, and certainly not up to the national level.

 

[Amp34]

Whaaaat? People have NEVER had it so good. At every notable stage in civlised history the UK has been run by royalty and aristocrats, with the poor generally left in squalor with almost ZERO chance to make something of themselves. Compare that to nowadays where celebrities often come from the most common of roots, and where almost everyone has at least the chance of a university education if they want it badly enough. Almost everyone is provided for on some basic level.

Are you seriously telling us that there was any point in the UK's history that was more "fair" and had a chance at a safer and more productive than it has now?

The challenge is to get everyone out of the starting blocks and persuade people to work for it. Yes, unfortunately some people will fall by the wayside (or have "bad luck") but giving people that push to go and get what they want rather than amble through life and many more will succeed. The question is how do you do that when many people just don't have the home life that supports that push to succeed.

If we spent more time trying to solve that issue than trying to take money off the successful then maybe some of the problems may be solved, that way we can spend less money looking after the smaller number of people that didn't make it.

Rather than go "I can't find anything in my area" or "I can't find anything in my trade", get them to think "if I move elsewhere I'll get that job" or "I'll retrain and get another job" rather than sitting at home thinking their life has failed and getting into even more of a rut.

It would have to start at home when they were young as mentioned, persuading parents to help their kids as much as they are pushed in school, the. Later on places like the job centre should be helping trying to actually get people jobs and training rather than the ridiculous form filling they do now. Yes courses may cost more money but at least it gives people something to "live" for, makes them more employable and gets them out of that rut!

 

[balky12]

I've never said that.

As for your bet, you would lose it.

http://www.economicshelp.org/macroeconomics/inequality/causes_poverty/

Notice how people choosing to do drugs etc. does not make it into the top 5.

You are a bright person, don't get me wrong, but use your head.

That isn't sourced and is someone's opinion more or less.

I'll take one of the 'main reasons' of poverty you listed. Inheritance. It doesn't make any difference what someone else inherits as to how poor someone else is.

If I inherit my parents house tomorrow it wouldn't make someone poor. If I don't inherit it tomorrow it wouldn't make a poor person rich.

If anyone does/ doesn't inherit any some of money/ estate it would not change my life one bit.

If you inherited millions of pounds tomorrow it wouldn't change my life. If you didn't, my life wouldn't change. In fact no ones life would change in OcUK. In fact no ones in the world beside you and your family would change.

Poor would still be poor and rich will still be rich.

 

[Housey]

There is MASSIVE amounts of research out there pointing to the differences between successful people and unsuccessful people and most of it I have seen, read and considered points to 10-15 fundamental traits that I absolutely support, but the prime two that I will absolutely uphold based on my life experience is this.

1: Unsuccessful people put the blame for their failures on others and look for a hundred reasons to justify their unsuccessful life.
2: Successful people will take responsibility for their own failures and successes.

Of course than then sees the unsuccessful discuss luck and privilege...so see point 1, this thread and every single thread like this is a clear demonstration of that.

Booo hooo the capitalist state.
Booo hooo 1 person owns the entire world
Booo hooo those rich people.
Booo hooo my school was bad.
Booo hooo my mum and dad beat me up.
Booo hooo my nan took drugs.
Booo hooo I never get the jobs 'cuz of the management, who are all idiots'.
Booo hooo if I only had the opportunity the bum lickers did I would show em.
Booo hooo I only work the hours they pay me for....
Booo hooo the system isn't fair to the poor
Booo hooo I always get overlooked and I'm better than those who don't
Booo hooo something something something dark side

I could go on, but it's been said here millions of times on this forum and forums all over the world. The yea but argument to this simply proves the point. These arguments fall apart when you start to point to people, many of them, who could say all of the above but are now hugely successful. Stop moaning, stop passing the blame to the system, the rich, the government, your own personal circumstance. You can get busy dying or get busy living, it REALLY is your choice. Sorry to sound like that American bloke with the big teeth, but frankly EVERYONE can make a change, most simply don't because it's too hard and far easier to blame everything around them that they feel stops them. I absolutely support that it's easier for some people, but that misses the whole point if all you do is use that as a reference for failure.

 

[Efour]

Every successful person exploits at some stage less successful people. Not everyone can be successful in the same way u cant run a battle ship with a crew of 700 captains. Capitalism needs cheap labour and only succeeds because of it.

 

[arknor]

There is MASSIVE amounts of research out there pointing to the differences between successful people and unsuccessful people and most of it I have seen, read and considered points to 10-15 fundamental traits that I absolutely support, but the prime two that I will absolutely uphold based on my life experience is this.

1: Unsuccessful people put the blame for their failures on others and look for a hundred reasons to justify their unsuccessful life.
2: Successful people will take responsibility for their own failures and successes.

Of course than then sees the unsuccessful discuss luck and privilege...so see point 1, this thread and every single thread like this is a clear demonstration of that.

Booo hooo the capitalist state.
Booo hooo 1 person owns the entire world
Booo hooo those rich people.
Booo hooo my school was bad.
Booo hooo my mum and dad beat me up.
Booo hooo my nan took drugs.
Booo hooo I never get the jobs 'cuz of the management, who are all idiots'.
Booo hooo if I only had the opportunity the bum lickers did I would show em.
Booo hooo I only work the hours they pay me for....
Booo hooo the system isn't fair to the poor
Booo hooo I always get overlooked and I'm better than those who don't
Booo hooo something something something dark side

I could go on, but it's been said here millions of times on this forum and forums all over the world. The yea but argument to this simply proves the point. These arguments fall apart when you start to point to people, many of them, who could say all of the above but are now hugely successful. Stop moaning, stop passing the blame to the system, the rich, the government, your own personal circumstance. You can get busy dying or get busy living, it REALLY is your choice. Sorry to sound like that American bloke with the big teeth, but frankly EVERYONE can make a change, most simply don't because it's too hard and far easier to blame everything around them that they feel stops them. I absolutely support that it's easier for some people, but that misses the whole point if all you do is use that as a reference for failure.

Do the cast of TOWIE fit into this sucess forumula ? jordan ? the list is endless


it made me laugh a few pages ago when someone said people like bill gates could get rich again if they had to.

ofcourse because they have all the contacts to do it!
if alternate universes (which is more likely than you might assume) exist there is likely one where he is poor and windows never made it

 

[Efour]

1: Unsuccessful people put the blame for their failures on others and look for a hundred reasons to justify their unsuccessful life.
2: Successful people will take responsibility for their own failures and successes.

well duh....

Its not really as ultra clear cut as that is it but yes. If you succeed at digging a hole you tell people how amazing you are at digging it. Showing it off to your Boyfriend etc.

If you don't you blame the tools, the fact the ground was too hard, the weather etc etc.

Its human nature to be proud of your success and ashamed of failure. I think its more about how you learn and adapt from failure. If you give up or try again. a lot of people give up early.

I think i just rewrote what you did ... lol its early its not my fault etc etc < unsucessful person