Royal Mail rant incoming...

[booyaka]

Very odd that RM came back so fast with the information saying it was delivered - you would expect some kind of delay/few days to check information.

I would certainly appeal/push back to RM/Postal Review on the grounds that there is nothing in their own T&C's that states the postman will sign for it if recipient is not in/home etc. Ultimately if "postie" signs for it, as you are finding out, there is zero comeback on the promise of compensation for missing item.

For them to say gps data confirms delivery is rubbish - it confirms they were potentially in the street, does not confirm anything was delivered.

I would agree that in this case - a reasonable effort from the recipient to at least visit his local sorting office/speak to someone down there should be attempted - that's the least they should be doing.

 

[AndyCr15]

I would agree the recipient has some responsibility to help sort this. Not that he would, but @SixTwoSix could argue the case that RM say it's delivered, his job is done.... (Again, I'm sure he wouldn't but you could argue recipient needs to prove otherwise if RM are that adamant it's been delivered)

 

[Semple]

Problem is, while a camera is great for showing something did happen, it's not ideal for showing it didn't, all it will show is that the postman didn't come to the door and deliver the parcel during the specific time window of the video you provide.

Can you start small claims proceedings against RM if they don't cooperate?

That doesn't make a lot of sense. If RM claim they delivered to my address yesterday at 12:01. Then I can prove that isn’t the case, I could even wind forward/backwards in the event they've mixed up the time. With google cameras you don't get access to the raw footage so no way of manipulating the data either.

Unless they have video or photo evidence to prove the parcel was delivered, it's unlikely they'd win a small claims case.

 

[GreatAuk]

That is pretty poor that they don't even take a picture. Seems like all the other couriers do that now except for cheap amazon parcels where they don't bother. Wouldn't take much effort on Royal Mail's behalf to add in a photo requirement but would be so much better than 'well he says he delivered it to the right house'.

 

[ColdAsIce]

Special delivery service should be suspended until they remove COVID restrictions. Paying for a service that is supposed to be A) Insured and B) Signed for and neither of these are taking place at the moment.

 

[Haggisman]

That doesn't make a lot of sense. If RM claim they delivered to my address yesterday at 12:01. Then I can prove that isn’t the case, I could even wind forward/backwards in the event they've mixed up the time. With google cameras you don't get access to the raw footage so no way of manipulating the data either.

Unless they have video or photo evidence to prove the parcel was delivered, it's unlikely they'd win a small claims case.

You're limiting this to a small subset of CCTV cameras though, there will be plenty of home CCTV systems where it is a standalone system which records to a DVR in the attic or a cupboard or whatever, possibly with an offsite backup, but ultimately the system is fully under control of the homeowner. It is trivial to adjust the date/time to whatever value you please, so even assuming you did have a cloud based system with verified time-stamps, you'd still need to have a relatively tech-savvy court to actually understand the difference.

Ultimately it comes down to a massive loophole in RM's current method of the postie signing it themselves - it's completely down to trust, and assuming the postie is careful and picky about which packages go "missing" then I can see how they could get away with it. E.g. if the OP re-used an OCUK box with their tape all over it, then he may well have thought there was something tasty inside.

Maybe an option of last resort, although the cost could quickly become more than the item i'm claiming for I imagine?.

Small claims is somewhere in the region of £35 iirc (which you get back if you win), although obviously you'd have to take into account any expenses you might incur (e.g. travel to court) and time spent doing so.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

if the OP re-used an OCUK box with their tape all over it, then he may well have thought there was something tasty inside.

So you're suggesting there is a supply shortage of Haribo and we should panic buy?

 

[b0rn2sk8]

You're limiting this to a small subset of CCTV cameras though, there will be plenty of home CCTV systems where it is a standalone system which records to a DVR in the attic or a cupboard or whatever, possibly with an offsite backup, but ultimately the system is fully under control of the homeowner. It is trivial to adjust the date/time to whatever value you please, so even assuming you did have a cloud based system with verified time-stamps, you'd still need to have a relatively tech-savvy court to actually understand the difference.

And yet stand-alone CCTV systems hold up to the criminal evidential standards when combined with a statement that it hasn’t been manipulated so your argument is just that and not that relevant.

It would be up to the other side to provide evidence that it had been to get it struck out. Arguments are not evidence. As others have pointed out it’s perfectly reasonable for the GPS to say it was in a similar location but the person not actually making it to the front door.

Manipulating evidence is a serious crime and comes with serious jail time if convicted.

 

[Haggisman]

So you're suggesting there is a supply shortage of Haribo and we should panic buy?

Pretty much - if you're lucky, you might even end up with a free RTX3090

And yet stand-alone CCTV systems hold up to the criminal evidential standards when combined with a statement that it hasn’t been manipulated so your argument is just that and not that relevant.

It would be up to the other side to provide evidence that it had been to get it struck out. Arguments are not evidence. As others have pointed out it’s perfectly reasonable for the GPS to say it was in a similar location but the person not actually making it to the front door.

Manipulating evidence is a serious crime and comes with serious jail time if convicted.

BRB going to commit a murder and then change the timestamp on my CCTV to prove I was home at the time...

There's a difference between CCTV showing something occurring (where the time it happened is secondary to the footage showing it actually happened) and CCTV showing nothing happened at a certain time. If you showed a video of someone getting stabbed on your drive, it doesn't really matter whether it happened at 2am or 3am, it still proves it happened. If you show a video of no-one not getting stabbed on your drive at 2am, all it proves is that it didn't happen when your CCTV was set to that time.

In fact, just for you, here's an unedited screenshot from my CCTV which shows irrefutable proof that I have invented time travel and gone forward in time:

 

[SixTwoSix]

In fact, just for you, here's an unedited screenshot from my CCTV which shows irrefutable proof that I have invented time travel and gone forward in time

Can you let me know if postal review comes back in my favour and honours the compensation please

 

[SixTwoSix]

Not that he would, but @SixTwoSix could argue the case that RM say it's delivered, his job is done

Frankly, if this were ebay/amazon MP, i'd be doing exactly that. I've fulfilled the burden of proof from my side it was sent and delivered. However as MM is more trust based and bespoke, i'm taking the buyer at their word and going beyond any effort i'd make on a more well known selling platform.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

Pretty much - if you're lucky, you might even end up with a free RTX3090



BRB going to commit a murder and then change the timestamp on my CCTV to prove I was home at the time...

There's a difference between CCTV showing something occurring (where the time it happened is secondary to the footage showing it actually happened) and CCTV showing nothing happened at a certain time. If you showed a video of someone getting stabbed on your drive, it doesn't really matter whether it happened at 2am or 3am, it still proves it happened. If you show a video of no-one not getting stabbed on your drive at 2am, all it proves is that it didn't happen when your CCTV was set to that time.

In fact, just for you, here's an unedited screenshot from my CCTV which shows irrefutable proof that I have invented time travel and gone forward in time:

I also have a similar ability. My dirty stop out of a daughter missed her curfew, this evening!

(Edit: and this is a cloud recording camera, so dun dun derrrr)

 

[MeatLoaf]

Would the post office know of missing or none delivered Royal Mail items?

Yes, post office is normally first port of call for most people to ask where it is.

Also, in cases where the items lost or mis delivered Royal mail will request all the paperwork for the special deliveries on the day it was sent. So yep, any issues the post office would know one way or another

 

[Vanquish-Storm]

Yes, post office is normally first port of call for most people to ask where it is.

Also, in cases where the items lost or mis delivered Royal mail will request all the paperwork for the special deliveries on the day it was sent. So yep, any issues the post office would know one way or another

You learn something new everyday. I would never think to go to the post office to chase my delivery. Maybe because I have dealt with Royal Mail at a business level but I would always go to Royal Mail directly. But maybe that’s a point…. if the OP goes to the Post Office he purchased a service from them that had not been fulfilled.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Special delivery service should be suspended until they remove COVID restrictions. Paying for a service that is supposed to be A) Insured and B) Signed for and neither of these are taking place at the moment.

Aye SD used to be a good but until covid rules are removed its not worth much they're just using it as an excuse now. Recorded/Signed For is totally useless and not worth the paper its printed on. Javid/everyone says covid is all over now so its about time RM thought so too!

Postie knocked on my door the other day and handed me a parcel wasn't even signed for/SD so its very much down to the quality of postie you get it seems

 

[watercooledman]

no chance of royal mail paying out they are terrible.

 

[Haggisman]

Aye SD used to be a good but until covid rules are removed its not worth much they're just using it as an excuse now. Recorded/Signed For is totally useless and not worth the paper its printed on. Javid/everyone says covid is all over now so its about time RM thought so too!

I can understand why they stopped it for covid, but it seems strange that they haven't reimplemented signing as soon as (supposedly) safe to do so. Are they not ultimately leaving themselves wide open to abuse, since without the recipient's signature they can't prove they actually delivered it?

Its not like postpersons are some kind of infallible beacon of trustworthiness - obviously I'm not saying all of them are dodgy, I'm sure 99.9% of them are perfectly fine and do the best job they can, but there are bound to be a few bad apples who now have an easy opportunity to steal any parcel which looks like it might have something valuable inside, and the customer has to pick up the bill (or ends up with a massive fight on their hands).

 

[mmj_uk]

Had a couple of couriers take a photo of the parcel just inside the door, having the courier sign for it themselves is just asking for trouble whether it be the person receiving claiming they haven't received it or the courier not actually delivering.

 

[tom_e]

I can understand why they stopped it for covid, but it seems strange that they haven't reimplemented signing as soon as (supposedly) safe to do so. Are they not ultimately leaving themselves wide open to abuse, since without the recipient's signature they can't prove they actually delivered it?

No because it now appears they just say it was delivered and hide behind the lack of signature so they can abuse the customer but not the other way around.

 

[Haggisman]

No because it now appears they just say it was delivered and hide behind the lack of signature so they can abuse the customer but not the other way around.

At which point you take them to court and I can't see what defence they could use?