RPG Design - Level scaling and open worlds

[spengos]

Been thinking a lot lately about why I like/dislike certain RPGs. The reason I play RPGs is to build a character from a complete nobody, to a total bad ass. Specifically its all about the feeling of progression. Comparing yourself to not only the enemies your fighting in the present but also the past and future.

After wandering into a higher level area and getting your ass kicked, nothing feels better than going back after a few levels or becoming a bit stronger and getting revenge! This is what its all about for me. But so few games seem to be designed this way anymore. Oblivion, Fallout, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Guild Wars are all just games where I felt like I was just along for the ride. You never come across something that makes you want to improve. Nothing to measure your progress.

An open world generally means enemies scale in level with you, meaning you can go anywhere and take on anyone without worrying too much about the outcome. This obviously has its positive sides but I just don't find it satisfying to play.

On the flip side, most RPGs that don't have enemy scaling just turn out to be linear and as you level and progress through the game, the enemies get tougher anyway. So again, there's no feeling of progression or that feeling of becoming more powerful. In a linear RPG you can't stumble upon higher level enemies and you cant(at least you don't have the need to) go back to lower level areas.

There are a few games that imo get it sort of right. I really enjoyed the early Gothic games, Risen, Dark Souls and most MMOs(e.g. WoW) have a rewarding leveling experience. Although most mmos tend to guide you in a fairly linear fashion.

I guess I'm just worried that the sort of RPGs I like are a dying breed. I welcome any suggestions on games I may have missed or maybe something I can look forward to on the horizon. But I'm really not liking this recent trend of game designers striving for equilibrium.

 

[Curunen]

Interesting.

For me it is about finding a niche for my character - whether combat (skill points and builds), general gameplay, or story choices. It's about making my character unique and either reflecting my personality, or otherwise simply what thoughts I have in mind for that character's personality.

For these games where you can do a repeat playthrough with the same character, I consider the first playthrough to be about discovery - how I want to shape my character (the "grinding" part). Then a repeat playthrough can be played as an action game where I can sit back and enjoy what I have created.
Mass effect for example - I loved "new game plus" where I can play it as a fully story driven TPS, after having discovered the character build in the first playthrough (the RPG part).

For games where it is only one playthrough, the first 1/3 is crucial for me to discover a playstyle and set the character on the path to achieve it. So afterwards I can sort of relax and enjoy the progression further into that playstyle.

 

[Pighardia]

Depends on the type of game for me. With something like Fallout 3/NV where your character is a nobody, I like to have high level areas where you can get annihilated so you have to build up a bit. The only problem might be that it limits the choices you get in relation to progression and what order you do things in.

If I am playing a pre-defined character who has a backstory, then I don't like it in games when things get too hard as it spoils immersion for me. For example, in Skyrim you are the mythical Dragonborn who has immense power, you really shouldn't be being swatted away like a fly by a mudcrab! ...I felt similar with The Witcher 2.

 

[No1newts]

Hang on, so you don't like open world because it Scales, and don't like linear/theme park because they don't scale

Herp derp

 

[spengos]

Hang on, so you don't like open world because it Scales, and don't like linear/theme park because they don't scale

Herp derp

No. I don't like linear games because they're linear. The levelling is fine.

Essentially I'd ideally want an open world RPG with static levelling.

 

[aln]

Been thinking a lot lately about why I like/dislike certain RPGs. The reason I play RPGs is to build a character from a complete nobody, to a total bad ass. Specifically its all about the feeling of progression. Comparing yourself to not only the enemies your fighting in the present but also the past and future.

After wandering into a higher level area and getting your ass kicked, nothing feels better than going back after a few levels or becoming a bit stronger and getting revenge! This is what its all about for me. But so few games seem to be designed this way anymore. Oblivion, Fallout, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Guild Wars are all just games where I felt like I was just along for the ride. You never come across something that makes you want to improve. Nothing to measure your progress.

An open world generally means enemies scale in level with you, meaning you can go anywhere and take on anyone without worrying too much about the outcome. This obviously has its positive sides but I just don't find it satisfying to play.

On the flip side, most RPGs that don't have enemy scaling just turn out to be linear and as you level and progress through the game, the enemies get tougher anyway. So again, there's no feeling of progression or that feeling of becoming more powerful. In a linear RPG you can't stumble upon higher level enemies and you cant(at least you don't have the need to) go back to lower level areas.

There are a few games that imo get it sort of right. I really enjoyed the early Gothic games, Risen, Dark Souls and most MMOs(e.g. WoW) have a rewarding leveling experience. Although most mmos tend to guide you in a fairly linear fashion.

I guess I'm just worried that the sort of RPGs I like are a dying breed. I welcome any suggestions on games I may have missed or maybe something I can look forward to on the horizon. But I'm really not liking this recent trend of game designers striving for equilibrium.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity

I don't think you're part of a dying breed, its just that publishers aren't really willing to back anything they don't consider a slam dunk and doesn't conform to their checklists. If the big boys are going to leave our money on the table, you might as well look at the indy devs for input.

Personally I feel the same, though I play more for the story and gameplay rather than a desire to grow, but those issues can still be jarring. I liked morrowind and Skyrim despite the level scaling issues, but oblivion was really taking the ****. Watching bandits stroll around with rare armours just because I have it is kinda immersion breaking. Seeing rare creatures in the forest just because I'm high level doesn't make any sense.

Still, if you don't mind 2D and haven't played the IE engine games, hit up gog. If you have and you loved them, kickstart the link above.

 

[Lunatic Dreyfus]

Level scaling is the devils work. Dragon Age: Origins is a good example of it.

Designing your way around it is obviously not too simple, but there's rarely a feeling that you've become a proper hard case if you implement it.

 

[Warbie]

I'm not really a fan of levelling. As you pointed out - your foes generally level with you as you progress, which half defeats the point. When you reach endgame in something like WoW, 90% of the game world is now redundant. It also causes issues in multiplayer when you can't play with friends due to too large level gaps (something that's been a pain in Borderlands 2 and Torchlight 2 for me this weekend).

 

[No1newts]

No. I don't like linear games because they're linear. The levelling is fine.

Essentially I'd ideally want an open world RPG with static levelling.

I've had a few so apologies if I'm missing the obvious but aren't the two essentially incompatible as to have levelling in a true open world would require some form of guidance. Game devs are too scared to let you loose in a world to find your own way as people tend toward too lazy to even bother.

Perhaps try eve? It doesn't have levelling per SE but you improve your character through the skill points and it is vastly open allowing you to do what you please.

 

[Omaeka]

Fallout New Vegas was far from scaled. Also, none scaled RPG's like New Vegas are actually more linear than scaled RPG's as your almost forced to go a certain path. I.E Goodsprings > Primm > Outpost > Highway > New Vegas, otherwise you'll get your ass kicked. Obviously there are exceptions but generally the higher leveled areas are impossible on hard. Skyrim on the other hand, you can go anywhere you want and do anything you want, and with Mass Effect and the other's you quoted, your far from 'along for the ride' as your the boss, period.

They are their own genres in a way, both to be enjoyed differently.

 

[HangTime]

Try Borderlands, I think that pretty much gives you what you want i.e. if you attempt to take on a boss who is a few levels above you, it is *REALLY* hard and you pretty much have to come back later. Although IMO it feels a bit weird having an enemy that is virtually impossible to kill at say level 8, but is fine at level 10. I think Borderlands must effectively have some sort of exponential/logarithmic scaling (of yourself) as you level up.

To be honest I'm not that fussed either way about enemy scaling in RPGs, my bugbear is when it happens in racing games (i.e. the more you upgrade your car, the faster opponents are).

 

[Strife212]

Oblivion scaling was the worst, leveling up was actually pointless.

 

[HarryPainful]

Dark age of Camelot had a good one, colour code system.

Grey - worth nothing
Green - lower level than you
Blue - just under your level
Yellow - equal level
Orange - bit higher but soloable
Red - much higher, death inevitable
Purple - run away

 

[FoxEye]

Oblivion scaling was the worst, leveling up was actually pointless.

Coupled with the fact that if you chose the skills you wanted to be good at, as major skills (ie, played properly), you ended up gimping yourself.

Yeah, Oblivion got it very, very wrong.

 

[Omaeka]

That's what mods are for, Obscuro's Oblivion Overhaul sorted all the rubbish out and turned it into the hardest SPRPG out by miles.

 

[FoxEye]

That's what mods are for, Obscuro's Oblivion Overhaul sorted all the rubbish out and turned it into the hardest SPRPG out by miles.

I must admit I never bought into the culture of modding. If I don't like a game vanilla, I don't bother with it.

Call me lazy, but I'm not going to spend my time fixing someone else's game.

 

[HarryPainful]

You're not, someone else has.

 

[Calin Banc]

I must admit I never bought into the culture of modding. If I don't like a game vanilla, I don't bother with it.

Call me lazy, but I'm not going to spend my time fixing someone else's game.

Modding it's not all about fixing, but rather about adding stuff, free content. In Arma 2 for instance, there are new armies, maps, weapons, vehicles, stuff that was impossible for the developer to add (when can you say that "it's enough"?). At the same time, it can change the "rules of the world" and essentially change the whole gameplay, giving you, the player, a new version of that game.

Other than that, there is a "set of rules", conventional gameplay mechanics applied from long ago, that never really changed. Deus Ex 1 is the same as DE 3 HR, HL 1 is the same as... any other modern shooter. Different story lines and different maps, that is all pretty much that has changed - sure, you can add some extra like bullet time in Max Payne, time control (Singularity/Timeshift) etc., but it doesn't really make a difference, the game worlds are still empty and similar.

Instead of thinking outside the box and letting the player kill an enemy by a creative mean, it puts him in the position of "shoot him 3 times, perhaps eat some meds in the meantime" or "come back later". You can't, for instance, kill it's food source and drive him away or starve him to death; you can't lure him into your trap to send some rocks/tress/etc onto him, and so on.

Probably in the past, it was all down to not having enough hardware power to recreate "the rules of reality", a trophic chain, a set of connections between life and it's environment, but now, I think it's more like "oh, if it brings us money, why bother?".

Maybe Watch Dogs can change that, although, I highly doubt it. Yeah, I know it's not a RPG, but an open world game and a RPG can really go hand in hand.

 

[wannabedamned]

Mods sort out levelling on oblivion, fallout and skyrim as said, Definitely for the better. It makes it how you want, You venture into areas where bad guys are too hard, you avoid the area. Level up and then go back.