Rules for Landlords requesting access to a property

[Skeeter]

Another year, another thread about being shafted by Landlords.

Anyway...

My landlord has decided out of the blue that he might sell the house we are renting to a friends mother, and the letting agent (its a managed property) called up yesterday to say they would be round to view on Monday.

I'm not sure they can do this, but I'm struggling to find the specifics to go back to them with. What I have established is:

We are 5 months into a 12 months contract
After 4 months either party can provide 2 months notice to end the contract
Once notice has been given we must allow access to the property for the landlord or any letting or estate agents to show round prospective tenants or purchasers.

What I can't find is the rules around who we do and don't have to let through the door while we are within the contract without any notice being given. Theres nothing in the contract we have (an assured shorthold tennancy agreement) about it, so I'm guessing its buried within the Housing Act somewhere, but I have been unable to find it as yet.

I seem to recall from speaking with landlords I know and from previous contracts that we don't have to let the landlord or any prospective buyers in at all, unless its for an emergency. Any non emergency requests need to be in writing and with at least 24 hours notice, and we need to agree. Other than that the landlord needs a court order.

Does anyone have any experience of this who can point me in the right direction to the relevant legislation?

To be clear, we are not planning on being complete arses and squatting or barricading the door or anything. We simply want to ensure that if they want to show people around who want to buy it, that they serve us the correct notice first so we can make plans. At the very least it might spur a conversation between us that can come to some compromise. Basically letting them in on Monday could mean we get turfed out in 2 months, and I'm not going to do that unless I absolutely have to.

 

[Skeeter]

Thanks for your help...

I've done a bit more digging and I think that if the landlord has his head screwed on then he can get people in regardless. We have to allow access for inspection of the state of repair by the landlord, and they are allowed to bring a witnes to that visit. I assume that means he could get access for a repair visit and bring his mates mum along and we can do nothing about it.

I am still going to go back and deny access on Monday however as there has been no written request made, just to stick to the terms we have.

 

[Skeeter]

Why be a nob about being kicked out of a house? Moving is expensive, for one.

A landlord can request 24 hours notice, in writing, to access a property in order to view its current state of repair, or carry out repairs. They can't just request access to show someone round, that falls foul of the 'exclusive use' and 'quiet enjoyment' of the contract.

If he wants to put the house on the market, so be it. He serves us notice, we move out, and anyone who wants to wander in to view is allowed. But if I'm not contractually obliged too, I'm not going to let people in, simple as that.

 

[Skeeter]

What does your lease say?

From what I can tell, normal Housing Act rules apply (i.e. written request for maintenance or inspection access), unless 2 months notice has been given, in which case we must let in prospective buyers or tenants.

Which is all fair.

 

[Skeeter]

We have a buffer between us and the landlord, with it being a managed property. We have zero involvement with him directly. I've never spoken to him, met him, or had any direct communication with him. It would be the letting agency showing the prospective buyer around on Monday, and the letting agency giving us a reference.

We have that same clause in our contract that within the final 28 days of the tenancy, or within the 2 months of notice if we leave early they can show people round. Thats fine, I've no problem with that. If they give us notice we will move out, and even keep the place tidy for him to show people around.

What I am not happy to do is basically open out doors to anyone who fancies coming in. We could have all manner of strangers coming into our home when we aren't there while the landlord twiddles his thumbs deciding if he wants to sell. And I'm not happy with that. If he wants to sell, then do it properly. Serve us notice, put it on the market or sell it to his mates mum, jobs done.

 

[Skeeter]

As in what do the clauses within your lease actually say? You're citing Housing Act but are you citing relevant parts and are you taking into account Landlord and Tenant provisions too?

The clauses in my lease say very little. The only bit in there is about allowing access to prospective buyers or tenants within the notice period.

Everything else is implied by the document stating its written within the provisions of the Housing Act.

Theres nothing in the contract we have about right to access, 24 hours notice, emergency access or anything. Its actually, with hindsight, not a very good contract.

 

[Skeeter]

It all rests on the definition of what is reasonable.

From what I can tell from the Housing Act, access in order to show prospective buyers round outside of any notice period is never considered reasonable. Which is supported by the fact its explicitly added in as a right to access the building when you are in a notice period (i.e. why would they add it in if you already had that right anyway?)

 

[Skeeter]

Skeeter don't be a nob or your just lose your deposit.
You have 2 months to pack up and find new place i would start now instead of wasting energy into this.
You rent this is what happen's you signed a lease that means he could sell it in 4 months in, Next time make sure 12 months is 12 months.

I'd like to see the Deposit Scheme claim where they attempt to withold the deposit "because the tenant was a nob".

A landlord can't just not pay your deposit back because he doesnt feel like it.

I'm also not just going to pack up and leave on the hunch the house might be sold.

They can't just show up without giving you notice.

Nothing in there about the letting agency's rights?

The letting agent acts on behalf of the landlord, therefore (I assume) inherits the same rights they have.

 

[Skeeter]

I don't know the actual law or your tenancy agreement of course. But a request to allow a potential purchaser access the the property for viewing, with several days notice, seems entirely reasonable to me. I'm with the "why be a nob?" brigade. Unless relationships are already strained or there will be an absolute flood of people then I don't see the point of denying a reasonable request.

Its the flood of people that is my main concern. I get the feeling the actual sale is a bit of a fishing mission. It sniffs a bit of just testing the waters, with the potential for some mates rates deal or something.

Basically, if I'm going to open my door to anyone who wants to come in, and be turfed out in 2 months, I want to know that now.

Put simply, a stranger wants to come into my house, and as a result of letting them I could be kicked out in 2 months. I don't think its unreasonable to want a bit more confidence in the situation.

 

[Skeeter]

It's not your house.

No, but its my home, somewhere I am legally allowed to reside without unreasonable hassle from my landlord.

Personally I would allow the first visit and maybe a few more. If it turns into a flood I'd then put my foot down and decline it as unreasonable unless he arranged them all in one session (e.g. a couple of open days).

Unfortunately it's not your property and you have no ability to stop the owner wanting to sell it. It really depends on what your tenancy agreement says. If it is for a minimum period of 12 months then you will be a sitting tenant. But if notice can be served then being awkward will simply make it more likely the owner will want you out.

I'm not trying to stop the owner selling it, I'm trying to force him to decide that is what he wants to do. He hasn't decided to sell the house, he's got in a conversation with his mate and his mum looking for a place has come up and he suggested having a look to see if she likes it. Its all very theoretical so has the potential to mean people in and out and all sorts of unknowns and uncertainty that could come to nothing.

2 years ago I spent the whole of the Christmas period trying to get hold of solicitors as a letter arrived Christmas Eve saying the house would be reposessed in January as the landlord hadn't paid the mortgage. It ruined Christmas. Being left uncertain about your living situation is a right ball ache and stress that I really don't want again.

And plus, we quite like the house, and if the price is right would be interested in buying it. So its within our interest for the landlord to decide what he wants to do rather than sit on the fence.

Edit: regarding the new owner looking for tenants, its for his mates mum to live in, they aren't looking for a buy to let.

 

[Skeeter]

Unfortunately as a tenant you can't force him to make a decision. However you might want to consider approaching him with an offer if you are interested in the house.

I think we can, as allowing people in to view it requires him serving us notice, which would require him making the decision to sell, or at least get us out.

Its the difference between 'I want to sell/I don't want to sell' and 'I might think about selling, there will be a bunch of people coming in and out, you won't know where you stand, um, iff, uhh, hmmmm, maybe'.

Im trying to get my head round part of the op. Your landlord is possibly selling a house that you are renting to a friends mother? That to me sounds like you're subletting the property? When I rented places when I was at uni there was normally a clause with didn't allow subletting. Is this the case with your rental agreement?

The landlord is thinking of selling it to one of his friends mum.

 

[Skeeter]

Ok, from Google-Fu, the contract, here, and speaking to a couple of landlords at work I think I'm well within my rights to say no to letting them in.

However, I don't think it makes any difference if I do or don't. If I say yes, and he wants to sell it, we get 2 months notice. If we say no, and he wants to sell it, we still get 2 months notice. If we say yes or no and he doesn't want to sell it, we carry on as we are.

I am still going to say no to Monday, but now because we are both off work and planning a day at home. They can come later in the week or something. I am also going to ask for far more commitment than we have on weather this is serious or just a passing thought.

Hopefully the cat will drop a right stinker when they come visit and put her off

 

[Skeeter]

I wouldnt want to mess with a man who has your deposit...

My landlord doesn't have my deposit.

can it be your home when its somebody else house!

sorry mate but its not your house and its not your home too!

So I'm homeless?

the law is very muddy. there is no hard and fast figures.

normally 24 hours for emergency or 48 hours for other reason. visit can be carried out once every 3 months without being deemed as unreasonable.

From what I can tell showing prospective buyers around doesn't fall into the category of visits allowed under the 24/48 hour notice thing. Its only compulsory that we let them when we are in a notice period.

I must say I am a bit shocked at the amount of people who seem to just lay down and suggest letting people walk all over them. I paid a few hundred quid in fees in getting this contract together, so I'm going to use my legal rights if I have too. A lot of people seem to have very out dated views on how deposits work too.

 

[Skeeter]

you are probably right. sorry, i dont have more information.

As people have said, it is a rather grey area and falls into what is defined as 'reasonable' or what would be considered harassment by the landlord and against the 'exclusive use' and 'quiet enjoyment' parts of the contract/law.

But the fact its specifically added in as a condition (that is the allowing of prospective buyers in) of the contract once notice has been served does support my findings that its a right that isn't in place at all times.

As a tenant you have quite a lot of rights. I am surprised at how quickly people seem to suggest I just ignore my rights and bend over.

In this instance I'm not going to stop them, other than ask they don't come on Monday, as it makes little difference to the outcome regardless. However I will always want to ensure I am not screwing myself over and foregoing all my rights simply to 'not be difficult'.

@ FrenchTart, Its quite worrying the amount of landlords who do still seem to think the have this leverage of just withholding your deposit to get you to do anything they want. But that said, while it may be nothing more than a paper tiger, the number of tenants who also seem to think this case is still true means it probably still works as a tactic a lot of the time.

 

[Skeeter]

Thats pretty much it. The right to access for viewings is added into our contract, but only as a result of either party serving notice. There is no right for it under normal contractual conditions.

Your last line is where I think he is. He doesn't know if he wants to sell, hes testing the waters, but he doesn't want to kick us out if the sale then doesn't happen as he would be left with an empty house. If we start getting requests for visits from multiple people, and surveyors, and estate agents, then he will be politely told no and asked to serve us notice before proceeding.

 

[Skeeter]

I would try and turn the situation around to work more in your favour.

If they've still not given you written notice that you're being kicked out in two months then write to them telling them that from the first visit (or now if you prefer) that's your two months notice that you will be moving out.

Personally I'd decide when you want to move out and set that as the date rather than waiting on the first visit. This means you're in complete control of the move out date.

Also, sorry if I've missed it but if you've not got in touch with the agency yet regarding the visits I'd say you have 3 options.

1) You plan on going out that day and allow them access to the property while you're gone
2) You plan on staying in that day and allow them access to the property while you're there
3) You say no, and try and dissuade them from coming. Let them know that you have prior arrangements that mean other people will be visiting the property (family maybe) and that it will not be in a presentable state.

Regardless of what you choose to do about the visit you can make your life easier by getting in touch with them and confirming a date that's suitable for YOU to move out.

The letting agent is actually realy good. They were very appologetic for the short notice and out of the blue request. They also are very accomadating in moving visits around. They have 3 month inspections and are happy to do them when best suits us. We shouldn't have any issues getting them to come on a day when we aren't in.

We have spoken to them about wanting to be considered should the house go on the market, and also about wanting to know exactly whats happening following this 1 visit, and if that then means notice will be served.

We have also asked about any agreement to allow us to stay until the end of the tenancy contract we have (i.e. mid May next year) even if he does sell the house. At the very least moving to to a few months rather than 2 would help as, from experience, finding somewhere to live around December is a nightmare.

 

[Skeeter]

Ah, thats the exact bit of the legislation I was looking for. Can you link me to where you got it?

I'm not going to exercise that right in this instance, but its good to know the details should I have to pull out the legal card at a later date.

 

[Skeeter]

We don't have a direct communication channel to the landlord. I don't know where he lives or have his hone number. Everything is managed through the letting agent, but they are pretty good.

I seriously doubt they would be able to turn around buying a house in 2 months, unless his mates mum has £300k under her matress in shoeboxes. I am expecting to get a firm answer after the visit as to if he wants to sell it. That way we will either be served 2 months there and then, or be told it will be sold soon and we will have 2 months notice plus however long it takes for them to sort out what they need to do.

2 months is fine, I'd just rather it was 2 months that didn't include Christmas. If we get notice served next week then we basically have to find something by mid December.

 

[Skeeter]

Faking requests for access? Or faking notice being given, terminating contracts and then reissuing them?

The former seems rather pointless, whereas I can see the latter being a cheeky money spinning scam.

 

[Skeeter]

Moved to Home and Garden. How random.

Well this thread is effectively dead now, so thanks to those who helped out.