Sales of Goods Act : Did I Miss Something?!

stuppy · 24 May 2006 at 13:20

Right,

About 2-3 years ago I bought a Nokia 6230 from O2 Online. The handset broke about 3 months after I got it. I had no insurance, and O2 told me it would have to be sent to Nokia for repairs - I had to take the phone to my local O2 Shop, where they packaged it and sent it off and 2 weeks later i went and picked it up. They told me they had to do it that way cause after 30days thats the only way to get a phone that is broken repaired under the Manufactures Warranty.

I thought this was gospel for all companies until today.

I got a W800i from Orange on contract about 4 months ago. The joystick has developed the all too familiar unresponsiveness in certain directions. I was all ready for sending the handset off to Sony Ericsson. I rang Orange and explained to them what the problem was. The lady looked through my account and she said "right, try a master reset of your phone. If that doens't work, ring us back and we'll arrange for a replacement handset to be sent to you - you are covered under the 6month Sales of Goods Act which means we can replace the handset for you". I was shocked. I have no insurance with Orange, and now tomorrow between 9 and 1 th ere is someone coming to swap the handset!.

So why did O2 make me go through all that rigmoral 2-3 years ago?! Is this a new law or something?

Good service from Orange IMHO.

stuppy · 24 May 2006 at 13:23

CHRIST! Ive put this in the wrong forum. Can someone transfer this to Mobile please!

Dolph · 24 May 2006 at 14:03

Both O2 and Orange complied with the SOGA, both facilitated repair or replacement of the equipment, they just do it in different ways.

Orange offer a replacement service for customers who buy from direct sales within 6 months of date of purchase, the handset is exchanged for a fully tested, reconditioned handset and the faulty one taken away for refurbishing. This is Orange's method of covering the problem.

O2 provide a service where they send your phone to be repaired.

Different ways of dealing with the same problem, both equally valid legally, but one is much better for the customer than the other.

VIRII · 24 May 2006 at 14:17

Under the sale of goods act you could infact ask for a refund instead. You would not have to accept a refurbished unit.
The 6 months bit is actually that "in the first 6 months you do not have to prove the unit is faulty" (paraphrased) but your cover under the SoGA by no means terminates after 6 months.

After 6 months the onus is on you to prove that the fault was present at the time of purchase (given that the joysticks wearing out is such a common issue with these phones you'd have no problem doing that.

What happens next is that you have to thrash out what you could reasonably expect from the product in question, it is defined as "what a reasonable person would consider acceptable" (paraphrased). In other words what a Judge would think was fair for the item given its unique nature. In your case I would think that you could reasonably expect 3 or 4 years of trouble free useage.

So once the fault has been proven and the duration of longevity expected decided upon we get to the compensation. If it was supposed to last 4 years and lasted 2 then you could reasonably expect half the value back by way of refund or a repair if that is cheaper.

All this manufacturers warranty stuff is absolute cobblers, your contract (and this is a very, very important point) is with the retailer NOT the manufactuer.
Therefore the retailer have to resolve your issue to your satisfaction and what goes on between them and the retailer should in no way impact you.

Have a look at this link for more detailed information:

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/Fact Sheets/page24700.html

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/Fact Sheets/page24702.html

Dolph · 24 May 2006 at 14:28

Of course, the fact that the real charge on a mobile phone is the line rental, which has nothing to do with the handset makes asking for a refund difficult...

How do you ask for a refund on something that was given to you free?

elroberto · 24 May 2006 at 14:29

o2 still follow the same procedure. Basically, as it's still under warranty, it's the manufacturers responsibility to replace or repair. It also depends where you bought the phone from. If your phone is faulty in the first 12 months of use take it back to the store. As long as you didn't purchase the phone from Phones4U it'll be sorted as fast as possible. (Trust me on this, I deal with those clowns every day!)

stuppy · 24 May 2006 at 16:11

See my worry now is that Im going to get this "reconditioned" handset, and in a couple of months the problem is going to be back again. I had a K750i before my W800i and that suffered the same problems (that was on O2, which I also sent back using the same procedure as the Nokia 6230 - and it was returned unfixed!).

So lets imagine that in 6 months time the handset develops a dodgey stick again - what grounds do i have for getting a replacement then?

Such a shame. I love my W800, and i loved my K750, but the joystick issue just brings it down immensely.

VIRII · 24 May 2006 at 16:29

Dolph said:
Of course, the fact that the real charge on a mobile phone is the line rental, which has nothing to do with the handset makes asking for a refund difficult...

How do you ask for a refund on something that was given to you free?

I'm pretty certain that it can and will be argued that the cost of the handset is not free as it is effectively repaid via the monthly contract and bills.
Nothing in life is really free is it.
The judge would be likely to adjudicate that the value of the phone is the amount it costs to replace and that as the person would not have taken out the contract without the phone that he is entitled to the phone or its value.

VIRII · 24 May 2006 at 16:30

elroberto said:
o2 still follow the same procedure. Basically, as it's still under warranty, it's the manufacturers responsibility to replace or repair. It also depends where you bought the phone from. If your phone is faulty in the first 12 months of use take it back to the store. As long as you didn't purchase the phone from Phones4U it'll be sorted as fast as possible. (Trust me on this, I deal with those clowns every day!)

It is NOT the manufacturers responsibility to replace or repair, it is the retailers responsibility. Your contract is with the retailer. Please read the links I posted, they are from the Department of Trade and Industry and are summaries of the LAW .....

• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.

• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

• For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

VIRII · 24 May 2006 at 16:31

stuppy said:
See my worry now is that Im going to get this "reconditioned" handset, and in a couple of months the problem is going to be back again. I had a K750i before my W800i and that suffered the same problems (that was on O2, which I also sent back using the same procedure as the Nokia 6230 - and it was returned unfixed!).

So lets imagine that in 6 months time the handset develops a dodgey stick again - what grounds do i have for getting a replacement then?

Such a shame. I love my W800, and i loved my K750, but the joystick issue just brings it down immensely.

The links that I posted tell you exactly what rights you have. If in doubt speak to "consumer direct".

Dolph · 24 May 2006 at 16:40

VIRII said:
It is NOT the manufacturers responsibility to replace or repair, it is the retailers responsibility. Your contract is with the retailer. Please read the links I posted, they are from the Department of Trade and Industry and are summaries of the LAW .....

But, in the case of O2, the retailer IS facilitating repair. The fact that they send the phone to the manufacturer rather than having an entire repair facility in the store is neither here nor there for that purpose.

Airax · 24 May 2006 at 18:21

Gents, the irony is your both right on this.

What everyone is forgetting is this grey area of "proof". When you get right down to it, practically every mobile takes abuse, because it is carried with us. In pockets, bags, etc, etc.

Besides, don't forget, once you have bought a product, you have a "reasonable" time to assess it for faults/defects. During this time if it is faulty you can give it back ASAP. What a "reasonable" time is, they don't define, but its generally take to be enough time to test the features of the product. To make life easier, most retailers, count this as 28/30 days. If it goes wrong, to them this is reasonable and they replace the item. Outside this, its fair enough for them to say you have "accepted" the goods.

So once they are accepted, you cannot bring it back and demand a refund on the spot. The retailer has to PROVE to you the item was not created faulty, but the damaged caused by you. To do this, it would have to go to a an engineer, typically a repair center. Now at this point, to make things faster/easier they will also use this chance to repair the phone. Often the repair doesn't actually take long, maybe an hour or so. Customer basically gets their phone back in the same time. Otherwise, they would confirm its faulty, send it back to the customer, who then has to claim for a new device. Its longer.

Because the for the first 6 months the onus is on the retailer, Orange will just swap out the handset, for a reconditioned one, to make life easier for the customer. Dolph is right in this respect, both retailers have complied under the SOGA, just in different ways.

TBH there are more important things in life to discuss, vanilla or strawberry? Which is your favourite?