Save the NHS!

[do_ron_ron]

Isn't your suggestion just as dogmatic? What evidence do you have that such an approach leads to better outcomes?

How about we look at what the best performing systems do and take it from there?

As opposed to the mayhem we currently have. Dumb answer from you, provide evidence for something that will happen in the future if what I suggest was followed. Other countries have different approaches and none can be taken as they have different values.

 

[Christmas themed thank]

I would like to ask why there is no place for profit in healthcare. Clearly the socialist option of no profit isn't working so what other option is there?

 

[Tunney]

Isn't your suggestion just as dogmatic? What evidence do you have that such an approach leads to better outcomes?

How about we look at what the best performing systems do and take it from there?

The NHS is the best performing (per £ spent) system. If we want to catch up with France and Germany in absolute terms then we need to invest significantly more money in our health system.

 

[do_ron_ron]

I would like to ask why there is no place for profit in healthcare. Clearly the socialist option of no profit isn't working so what other option is there?

There is a difference between the NHS using its expertise and getting some profit on the side from this expertise and having the whole organisation run for a profit. Any poll I have seen, the vast majority oppose that idea. Why do you brand the idea of looking after your own citizens as socialist? You could very easily say Christian or moral.

 

[Dolph]

The NHS is the best performing (per £ spent) system. If we want to catch up with France and Germany in absolute terms then we need to invest significantly more money in our health system.

Only if you ignore clinical outcomes, as the commonwealth fund did when they made this declaration.

Personally, I'm of the view that the purpose of a healthcare system is healthcare outcomes.

https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/healthcare/comparing-apples-to-apples-nhs-still-ranks-below-average

 

[Christmas themed thank]

There is a difference between the NHS using its expertise and getting some profit on the side from this expertise and having the whole organisation run for a profit. Any poll I have seen, the vast majority oppose that idea. Why do you brand the idea of looking after your own citizens as socialist? You could very easily say Christian or moral.

Because the NHS is a socialist enterprise?

 

[Secret_Window]

I would like to ask why there is no place for profit in healthcare. Clearly the socialist option of no profit isn't working so what other option is there?

What sort of model do you think would work instead - the American one?

 

[Dolph]

What sort of model do you think would work instead - the American one?

False dichotomy. Most of Europe doesn't replicate the nhs either, despite looking nothing like the American system.

 

[Secret_Window]

False dichotomy. Most of Europe doesn't replicate the nhs either, despite looking nothing like the American system.

It's not my preferred option, but there were rumours of us moving to that model through TTIP.

 

[Dolph]

It's not my preferred option, but there were rumours of us moving to that model through TTIP.

It wasn't rumours, it was nonsense scaremongering but that's par for the course in lieu of proper debate these days.

 

[Secret_Window]

It wasn't rumours, it was nonsense scaremongering but that's par for the course in lieu of proper debate these days.

TTIP might be scrapped under Trump anyway, so all of it may be irrelevant.

 

[do_ron_ron]

Because the NHS is a socialist enterprise?

So it was set up by the only Socialist Govt this country has had? Why is that some kind of impediment to it being useful?

In fact it is probably the most loved UK institution.

 

[do_ron_ron]

False dichotomy. Most of Europe doesn't replicate the nhs either, despite looking nothing like the American system.

No but it is the one the UK with its slavish adherence to all things American will go for. Most of the UK's people brought in by this Govt to advise on the NHS are Americans.

 

[Secret_Window]

No but it is the one the UK with its slavish adherence to all things American will go for. Most of the UK's people brought in by this Govt to advise on the NHS are Americans.

Not only that, but the US private providers were leading bidders to provide cancer treatment in staffordshire at one stage. So there is some involvement, but to what extent, is still unknown.

My biggest concern really is if we move to an insurance based system, pre-existing conditions may not be covered, and therefore force people to pay for treatment because their insurance doesn't cover it. The problem with this, is it is unlikely to be affordable by anyone, especially longterm for certain treatment.

If I was to choose a new healthcare model, I would prefer the European model like France. However, my preference would still be the NHS above all private providers, as my experience with them has been that their standards are not as high or better as people might think.

Yes, the NHS has lots of problems, but I still think it is much better than a lot of other healthcare providers out there.

 

[Dolph]

Not only that, but the US private providers were leading bidders to provide cancer treatment in staffordshire at one stage. So there is some involvement, but to what extent, is still unknown.

My biggest concern really is if we move to an insurance based system, pre-existing conditions may not be covered, and therefore force people to pay for treatment because their insurance doesn't cover it. The problem with this, is it is unlikely to be affordable by anyone, especially longterm for certain treatment.

If I was to choose a new healthcare model, I would prefer the European model like France. However, my preference would still be the NHS above all private providers, as my experience with them has been that their standards are not as high or better as people might think.

Yes, the NHS has lots of problems, but I still think it is much better than a lot of other healthcare providers out there.

Look at the Dutch system for how a mixed provision system should work.

 

[Secret_Window]

Look at the Dutch system for how a mixed provision system should work.

Yes, Dutch system looks quite good. My gripe has always been the American one and the current UK private healthcare options.

 

[scorza]

Make no mistake, the Tories are taking us towards a US style healthcare system - not a European one. You only need to look at who is donating to the party to see that.

 

[Secret_Window]

Make no mistake, the Tories are taking us towards a US style healthcare system - not a European one. You only need to look at who is donating to the party to see that.

Oh I have no doubt that is probably what they are aiming for - I just think the European models look better, if/when everything does head to full privatisation.

But is that what you would like scorza? What is your preference?

 

[scorza]

Oh I have no doubt that is probably what they are aiming for - I just think the European models look better, if/when everything does head to full privatisation.

But is that what you would like scorza? What is your preference?

My preference is for a fully funded socialised healthcare model, where the Secretary of Health has a responsibility to provide a service to everyone in the country. The NHS like it used to be basically. That said, given the situation at the moment it might be better to just bite the bullet and have a privatised solution along the lines the Europeans have - seems the easiest way of reducing the current levels of suffering right now.

 

[Dolph]

My preference is for a fully funded socialised healthcare model, where the Secretary of Health has a responsibility to provide a service to everyone in the country. The NHS like it used to be basically. That said, given the situation at the moment it might be better to just bite the bullet and have a privatised solution along the lines the Europeans have - seems the easiest way of reducing the current levels of suffering right now.

This is where we differ, surely clinical outcomes is the most important factor, set against cost of provision.

The massive state monopoly with centralised political control has already shown it behaves exactly the same in healthcare as it does for nearly everything else... poorly.