Reports with actual figures to say 34 % of doctors and nurses are complete and utter ******** or out of context shock horror something has gone wrong in a massively large organisation Daily Mail articles. Even Dolph is here in this thread saying the staff were good. I mean comeon what more d'ya want than that!
Save the NHS!
- Thread starter scorza
- Start date
Reports with actual figures to say 34 % of doctors and nurses are complete and utter ******** or out of context shock horror something has gone wrong in a massively large organisation Daily Mail articles. Even Dolph is here in this thread saying the staff were good. I mean comeon what more d'ya want than that!
Yes that's what everyones saying about the proposals.
Of course we can afford it
It's cheaper than the alternative insurance based proposals. Saying that your family has private health insurance and therefore you're OK is dumb - private healthcare in this country operates to compliment the NHS (though this is diminishing as they are competing more) and focuses on good customer service because you can always fall back on the NHS. Take away the NHS and you'll find a totally different form of private healthcare with a focus on profits not customer service (think about your motor insurance provider here). For the vast majority of people that means enduring standards worse than the current NHS and paying through the nose for it.
Associate
- Joined
- 31 May 2004
- Posts
- 1,942
- Location
- The 'Toon, UK, in Europe
To be fair, McKinsey were being piped financial and operational information direct from PCTs before the ConDems got in. They were told to do this directly from central government quite a while ago, so saying they're colluding with
Lansley now is a bit daft. I know this as fact because I had to do it.
I may not agree in whole with your politics or views on this subject, but I'll defend your right to debate it to be honest.... And being frank, you do a damn good job of debating sometimes!
My reply isn't getting at you Dolph, by the way.
We can't afford the NHS now and it doesn't even beg thinking about what it will be like in the future.
It was designed and created in a different era and is not fit for purpose any more. It is such a huge problem that its hard to pin down where it all went wrong as there are so many reasons.
Medical technology and treatment has progressed so much and is now in the hands of private companies for the most part. (the drug companies and suppliers). When it was created, the number of treatments that were available were nowhere near as medicine based whereas now, most things that people use the NHS for will require some sort of drug or treatment program.
We have an ever increasing population that lives longer and does a lot more than in the past. Think about how many people end up in hospital from drinking, sports and accidents every week.
There are so many amazing drugs around that can potentially treat problems much better than traditional cheaper drugs but no-one wants to get a cheaper drug that is less effective so what do the NHS do.
Thats just a few of the issues and is the tip of the iceberg. The NHS will fail in my lifetime I would imagine. The question is, how will it do it? A catastrophic failure or a phased reduction in the services that the NHS provide.
Yes we cannot afford as a society to make available all forms of treatment for everybody. With the advances and cost of treatment rising, we will'have to make a choice....
Either everybody gets a lower standard of treatment options, which is what we are seeing now, or we accept that those who can pay, get a better option.
We simply cannot afford to give everybody the best there is simply because we can't afford it. Take treatment for cancer. All the latest biomedical drugs are in the magnitude of tens of thousands per year. When the drugs alone cost multiples of you entire NI contribution over your lifetime, it simply isn't sustainable for everybody to get it.
Either everybody gets a lower standard of treatment options, which is what we are seeing now, or we accept that those who can pay, get a better option.
We simply cannot afford to give everybody the best there is simply because we can't afford it. Take treatment for cancer. All the latest biomedical drugs are in the magnitude of tens of thousands per year. When the drugs alone cost multiples of you entire NI contribution over your lifetime, it simply isn't sustainable for everybody to get it.
There is also the other problem of Nurses. Its a testing job with ok pay and bad working conditions. We are using more and more foreign nurses because UK ones won't put up with it any more. Its the same for teaching.
When you have so many issues eating away at every area of the NHS, I don't see how it can be saved without drastic drastic change.
There is a simple truth that when you give people something for free, they tend not to value it. What happens in America if you get drunk and get in a fight requiring medical care?
When you have so many issues eating away at every area of the NHS, I don't see how it can be saved without drastic drastic change.
There is a simple truth that when you give people something for free, they tend not to value it. What happens in America if you get drunk and get in a fight requiring medical care?
So you don't think that anyone in this country would stop being such a leary **** if they knew that it would land them a large bill. Im sure it would deter some.
The main thing I am saying is that if you charge people for things like that then you will save money because you are not footing the bill for their stupidity.
Suspended
- Joined
- 17 Oct 2011
- Posts
- 5,707
- Location
- Buckingamshire
Of course we can afford it
I'm not sure you understood. I was talking from the perspective of the tax payer. If health care was fully private, then it would be cheaper as we'd have to pay only for the feckless and work shy instead of everyone.
The 2011/2012 budget is around £106 billion. That's a lot of cash that could be invested in other things.
In our experience, private healthcare has been amazing - far higher standards than the NHS and no waiting times. Not sure what's 'dumb' about that
I'm not sure you understood. I was talking from the perspective of the tax payer. If health care was fully private, then it would be cheaper as we'd have to pay only for the feckless and work shy instead of everyone.
The 2011/2012 budget is around £106 billion. That's a lot of cash that could be invested in other things.
In our experience, private healthcare has been amazing - far higher standards than the NHS and no waiting times. Not sure what's 'dumb' about that
We need a mixture of the two, a system akin to Germany's may work. America apparently still spends more per person that we do on health care even though they have private healthcare as the default. If you make healthcare a pure market economy driven system the costs soar across the board.
Suspended
- Joined
- 17 Oct 2011
- Posts
- 5,707
- Location
- Buckingamshire
How does the German system work?
I am no expert on it but as far as I can see, people on under ~£2500/month are required to join a government run fund of which there are a few hundreds. This comes from your pay packet and is subsidised to the tune of 50% by your employer. If you earn over that, you are free to use a different system from a private provider that you pay for.
The amount you pay is a percentage of your wages. About 13-14%.
Hospitals are run by a mixture of private, public and non-profit organisations and competition is encouraged and all services ranked and regularly assessed. People are encouraged to shop around.
You can be treated anywhere you like pretty much and the bill is sent from the provider of the service to the government funds that people pay into.
There are apparently a lot more distinct specialisations in Germany as well. You will find many clinics that deal in a particular speciality and that is all they do. The decentralisation away from hospitals and GPs offices means that more local services that are convenient to customers appear in their towns and cities.
If you go to a place you do not like or feel you were treated poorly you can simply go elsewhere (within reason).
They believe in having more specialists than we do and bypassing the GP for most issues. If you have a foot problem you would go straight to a foot expert rather than a GP who would refer you. The level of equipment over there is much higher than here apparently as well.
Levels of customer satisfaction are about 4 times greater than the UK and the quality of care is of a higher level.
The amount you pay is a percentage of your wages. About 13-14%.
Hospitals are run by a mixture of private, public and non-profit organisations and competition is encouraged and all services ranked and regularly assessed. People are encouraged to shop around.
You can be treated anywhere you like pretty much and the bill is sent from the provider of the service to the government funds that people pay into.
There are apparently a lot more distinct specialisations in Germany as well. You will find many clinics that deal in a particular speciality and that is all they do. The decentralisation away from hospitals and GPs offices means that more local services that are convenient to customers appear in their towns and cities.
If you go to a place you do not like or feel you were treated poorly you can simply go elsewhere (within reason).
They believe in having more specialists than we do and bypassing the GP for most issues. If you have a foot problem you would go straight to a foot expert rather than a GP who would refer you. The level of equipment over there is much higher than here apparently as well.
Levels of customer satisfaction are about 4 times greater than the UK and the quality of care is of a higher level.
Suspended
- Joined
- 17 Oct 2011
- Posts
- 5,707
- Location
- Buckingamshire
Sounds good to me. Any downsides?
I didn't see any when I was reading about it but I am sure there are some as with any system. Customer satisfaction is a fairly good indicator of the downsides to a healthcare system but the only one I can see is that 6/7% of your salary might be quite a lot for some people. On the flip side, I have no idea about what percentage of my taxes goes towards the NHS as our tax system is a lot more general and doesn't place specific percentages on specific uses as far as I know.
Last edited:
I agree that we shouldn't be paying the feckless and work shy directors and CEOs of private healthcare companies who are licking their lips at the prospect of a prolonged period of time at Lansley's trough.
Seriously though, what's the point of paying £1k less tax, if you end up being forced to pay £1.5k a year in health insurance premiums? How exactly does that benefit the majority of the population? The only winners will be the top 1% (again!) for whom a £30k a year top-notch insurance premium is far less than what they pay in income tax towards the NHS.
Like what? What is more important than universal healthcare? Fighting wars for oil? Foreign aid to countries with their own space programme? If you're talking about investing the money saved from tearing down the NHS then we don't even get a reduction in taxation to help pay for our new super-expensive health insurance premiums.
In our experience, private healthcare has been amazing - far higher standards than the NHS and no waiting times. Not sure what's 'dumb' about that
Great, now see what happens when the entire country uses private healthcare. You still have the same number of resources trying to treat the same number of customers. See how rapidly your wonderful private healthcare system deteriorates to a standard worse than the current NHS standard. Lets face it, the standard in privatised elderly care is so good isn't it?
Suspended
- Joined
- 17 Oct 2011
- Posts
- 5,707
- Location
- Buckingamshire
The whole country couldn't afford it. The tax payer subsidised service offered to those that can't won't be at the same level. Same as NHS and private dentists.
And this is an argument for private healthcare in your world?
Or did you just want to let us all know how well off you and your family are?
Suspended
- Joined
- 17 Oct 2011
- Posts
- 5,707
- Location
- Buckingamshire
And this is an argument for private healthcare in your world?
It's life. You get what you pay for.
