Save the NHS!

Dolph using a fallacy. How ironic. I don't defend poor care I challenge it. But I challenge it with a perspective of actually not coming from one ideology. I don't willfully castigate a whole organisation and blame it for the inevitable failures. See that post before you entered - that's one that is saying to a NHS staff member that maybe the NHS is at fault partly for a problem. Doesn't quite fit with your assessment there.

We differ in whether we believe the problems with the NHS are because of or in spite of the structure of the service. I believe all the evidence points to the former, you the latter, and neither of us are willing to shift from that.

You see practitioners do challenge bad care. There's case in the news today about that very thing. Assessment by experienced and excellent practitioners on failure.

And by the way Dolph - the man with a degree in Chemistry who could actually go in there an make a difference about poor care. What have you personally done to improve care if it is so woefully poor - bar moan that is? If not the fair enough no-one expects you to but if you truly believe in the need for progress people may just think you are a hypocritical bystander.

I would be more than happy to lend my expertise to the nhs if I thought it would do any good. Unfortunately the transformation to a truly patient care centered organisation would meet with massive resistance from the vested interests within it (see the bma and various royal colleges for examples), as well as massive negative coverage and attacks from people arguing on ideology rather thab evidence, and as such is very unlikely to happen. Coming from a role in the private sector where I am listened to would be a big shock I think unless there was a huge step change in both the organisation itself and the sacred cow status. Experience of expressing interest in a similar role with the local police and crime commissioner also suggest the public sector is not as family friendly in terms of flexibility as my current employer.

If you were to not invest time in your daughter, to not buy the things she needs to progress, to constantly criticise every failure without establishing what actually failed, to renege on your promises, to ignore the failures elsewhere and attributing all the blame on her, to falsely compare her against supposed peers, and to switch the subjects she is studying (when older) every 3 months - do you think she would come out well adjusted and motivated and reach the potential she was able to.

Almost certainly not, but that is why I don't let politics interfere with my daughters upbringing. if she was the responsibility of the state, they would be unable to prevent it.

Yes, the NHS is failing in many ways - I've never denied it - but unlike you I can see the reasons why it is failing, the failures in other systems, and actually tried to do something about it.

Just because we disagree on the cause of and solution to the problem doesnt mean I haven't done my research. Nor does it mean we don't actually want the same thing.
 
Cambridge & Peterborough ? hmmmm Im sure all of there "Support functions" were outsourced to Serco some time ago as well. Anglia Support Partnership

Seems the private sector is getting a good hold of the NHS over there ! Appalling

Linky Linky2
 
I used to work for a company that did a lot of government outsourcing. The problem with these outsourcing companies is that they only care about winning the work. Doing the work is very much a secondary priority. They cut corners with the quality of the work and load of costs to cover their highly paid sales team and, obviously for a private company, their profit margin.

The workers get treated like crap, the savings are minimal and the quality of work is far, far worse.

Outsourcing might work if it wasn't the same handful of large companies bidding for each contract. They're all as bad as each other.
 
We differ in whether we believe the problems with the NHS are because of or in spite of the structure of the service. I believe all the evidence points to the former, you the latter, and neither of us are willing to shift from that.

Oh really. Just the last page ...

Everyone lost sight of what the NHS was all about: Labour, the Conservatives, the professionals and the public. Everyone is complicit and everyone is to blame. From the rampant mismanagement, professional turf fighting, political mismanagement and manipulation for re-election, poorly thought out Labour social policy, Conservative underfunding and profiteering, public who wish to sustain life at all costs and professionals all too willing to indulge them and yet unwilling to challenge them.
 
My first proper experience of terrible nhs care was in 1992, before most of the current changes.


I think the NHS are just awesome and this is after having a second operation then caught a skin eating bug
which has put me in bed for months. Things like this will happen I place no blame on the NHS.

And before anyone askes if I'm going to sue them I'm not. You never sue the person that's trying to save your life.
 
So Dolph - any evidence to demonstrate that the providers you want to give a chance have the sufficient experience of any evidence of improved results to be given a chance? Any evidence for this at all?

Or is a case of I fancy a change I'll let anyone with sufficient leverage and lobbying have a crack?

The achievements of circle at Hitchenbrook would be a good place to start, but unless you are advocating a total fresh start with no exisiting employees carried over, evidence of efficiencies and problem solving is likely to be more important than anything else when taking on services.
 
Oh really. Just the last page ...

That is all about the people, not the structure itself. indeed that paragraph kind of proves my point. you never mention the complete lack of structural incentive to do well, the lack of competition driving standards and so on.

I do not accept that healthcare is so different from everything else that it bypasses the monopolies perform poorly rule, and you refuse to consider this, instead blaming those within the system for not addressing the systemic flaws of the structure itself.
 
I used to work for a company that did a lot of government outsourcing. The problem with these outsourcing companies is that they only care about winning the work. Doing the work is very much a secondary priority. They cut corners with the quality of the work and load of costs to cover their highly paid sales team and, obviously for a private company, their profit margin.

The workers get treated like crap, the savings are minimal and the quality of work is far, far worse.

Outsourcing might work if it wasn't the same handful of large companies bidding for each contract. They're all as bad as each other.

successful outsourcing requires a clear strategy, backed up with well written contracts and clear obligations and expectations for both parties. Unfortunately many organisations in both the public and private sector don't get this and the results are often poor.
 
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That is all about the people, not the structure itself. indeed that paragraph kind of proves my point. you never mention the complete lack of structural incentive to do well, the lack of competition driving standards and so on.

I do not accept that healthcare is so different from everything else that it bypasses the monopolies perform poorly rule, and you refuse to consider this, instead blaming those within the system for not addressing the systemic flaws of the structure itself.

It doesn't prove your point. The drive to meet standards is a fundamental prerequisite of the professional codes ...

No competition to drive standards - are you aware of the competitive nature of the professions and the need to maintain and achieve excellence to get the funding you require? Obviously not. Because this happens internally and nationally, and in some trusts internationally.

You provide no evidence to demonstrate better outcomes by what you suggest. You willfully ignore that I wrote about mismanagement problems which kind of covers the 'structures' that they implement.

Evidence based practice is about acknowledging shortcomings and demonstrating why change will offer improvement. You offer diatribe about failings and no evidence why change will offer improvement.
 
successful outsourcing requires a clear strategy, backed up with well written contracts and clear obligations and expectations for both parties. Unfortunately many organisations in both the public and private sector don't get this and the results are often poor.

Any evidence to demonstrate why this will be any different. Maybe clear strategies for such complex things with the fundamental problems in trying to predict any non-linear relationship will mean that failure is preordained and actually the structure and re-organisation you propose is totally foolhardy.

But hey rather than try and refine, fix and properly fund let's chuck it all away for the unknown. I mean the railways got better didn't they ...
 
You have to try and trace why they have DNAs though. Not all are straight DNAs. I used to chase up (well get someone else to if I were honest) why they occurred and in most cases you could qualify it. Letters sent out to parents who couldn't get childcare easily and lost it at the last minute. Undelivered letters. Letters sent to parents who had significant problems themselves and were confused or just plain crazy etc.

The problem is that people are always so willing to assume the immediately obvious answer is the true answer in such cases. But like all failures in the NHS and most likely elsewhere the problems are caused by a compounding of little problems and oversights.

You can instantly reduce the amount of DNA by removing the choice from the provider onto the patient. Forcing them to book their appointment instantly removes the unknown - naturally you need to chase up those who don't even make the appointment. But when they chose you can immediately tackle issues such as transport, childcare, etc.

Very true but I can also follow up with the Medisec letters sent to the GP which will say something like 'No reason given so we will take this patient off the list unless you put them back on'.
There is no reason for not ringing up and saying why you are going to be DNA that way they could quickly (maybe) give somebody else an appointment.
 
I agree it is a problem but as the provider you need to remove every barrier possible. My local well not local - my local hospital is staffed by a bunch of morons - but shall we say the hospital close to me I use covers this amazingly well. Efficient and effective with good support and provision.
 
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I wouldn't say NHS direct was excellent - if you are ill get some eyes on it not follow an algorithm. Seen far too many mistakes that way. People put too much trust in protocols, algorithms and machines. Need to open their damn eyes and look, listen and feel what is going on.

There is no reason for not ringing up and saying why you are going to be DNA that way they could quickly (maybe) give somebody else an appointment.

Interesting I was at a clinic today following up a few people and I glanced at their figures.

Total Outpatients appointments for last week 16500
Total DNA for last week 1500.
 
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I wouldn't say NHS direct was excellent - if you are ill get some eyes on it not follow an algorithm. Seen far too many mistakes that way. People put too much trust in protocols, algorithms and machines. Need to open their damn eyes and look, listen and feel what is going on.

I can only go off my own experiences, I hurt my ankle playing squash, phoned NHS direct, they got a nurse to call me back after an hour who told me how to treat it and under what circumstances I needed to go to A&E, which fortunately didn't materialise. I expect if I rang 111 today I'd get told to go straight to A&E as no nurses would be available.

NHS Direct was also really helpful when my sister was having a mild asthma attack, instead of directing her to A&E they told her about a 24 hour GP clinic in a different part of the hospital that might be more appropriate. So instead of waiting for hours in A&E with the drunks and junkies, she was seen within an hour of arrival, given a nebuliser and sent home with an inhaler (which she should have had in the first place tbh).
 
I wouldn't say NHS direct was excellent - if you are ill get some eyes on it not follow an algorithm. Seen far too many mistakes that way. People put too much trust in protocols, algorithms and machines. Need to open their damn eyes and look, listen and feel what is going on.



Interesting I was at a clinic today following up a few people and I glanced at their figures.

Total Outpatients appointments for last week 16500
Total DNA for last week 1500.

Out of interest, could the clinic have coped with seeing the 10% that didn't show, or is it built into their protocols to have additionals booked knowing several won't show for each session?

From my own POV, the 'practice' in theory admin bills people for not turning up, I never see any of that, and its waived as often as its applied. It was a deterrent when introduced, and when people short notice cancel, and are not giving an excuse of actually being ill, they often change their minds and realise they can actually make it when told the FTA charge.

I don't overbook, I expect things to take as long as is needed, and I book times that suit what I plan to do, as such I don't tend to run late by much, rarely overrun, unless something unexpected occurs, have my own slots for emergencies morning and afternoon, and am in a big enough practice that our slots even out, so 3 of mine turn up sore some day, someone will see the other two, as I have seen theirs the day before etc.

We might deliver 90% NHS work, but its a private business, it has existed within the NHS since its first incarnation, and clearly works to some degree. How well it works in England after them messing the contract around twice is debatable, as anecdotal evident I have heard would suggest if you want professional care you either get lucky somewhere or you go private. In Northern Ireland the base standard is much higher, but will diminish over the coming years due to cuts, and the rise of 'corporates' which are trying to trounce the market currently, squeezing everyone and frankly hurting overall healthcare in the role we fulfil. Bigwigs won't care, they employ a Spanish graduate for 30K a year, they grind and perform cutting shop treatment, then disappear home before they are queried questioned or removed from practice. The corporate suffers no ill effect, as it isn't them who is ultimately responsible for the treatment.

The service is about to introduce cuts to stop the budget rising, specifically they are trying to treat 1M registered patients with the same amount of money they spent on 900K 3 years ago. Means to do this involve attempting to set savings in the region of 3-4%, but with the eras they are cutting and the way things filter down, actual cuts to my income would mean I will have to do between 18-20% more gross income to actually take home the same amount.

I can see applied savings elsewhere having similar effects if they are as poorly thought through. The NHS doesn't need saving, its needs a top down cull, not in staff or wages or anything or the sort, but in exactly what it should be providing, or should be claiming to provide. We should consult, we should agree and disagree and then come up with a rational for in the future, maybe starting ten years exactly what will and won't be available, and how people might cover themselves for the shortfall, and I don't mean means testing, or we'll always cover the poor or the old, I mean this is available, and this isn't. Tighten NICE like a vice around the service.

Then see what we do provide is superb, and what isn't available some other company will, for a cost.

In other areas of healthcare when super-duper technologies became available the NHS jumped to spend all its money providing them. In dentistry it didn't.
A very good, well provided treatment with a now excellent long term result could be provided but isn't, due to cost. Dental implants. 2k a tooth, is too much.

This could be applied to every single other area of healthcare until either the costs come down or alternatives are available, as technology gets better, treatments do, but cost increases and the pot of gold isn't infinite.

No politician would have the balls to ever consider such a prospect, as the Ed's would spend 4 years bleating about how they would fix it by spending money they don't have, and indeed didn't have in the boom either, yet they'd win the election.
 
Anyone see C4 Dispatches tonight? Undercover reporters sent to 111 call centres run by private sector outfit - Harmoni. Some quite shocking evidence, inadequate training given to staff, not enough equipment, too few clinicians. Not good at all.
 
Out of interest, could the clinic have coped with seeing the 10% that didn't show, or is it built into their protocols to have additionals booked knowing several won't show for each session?

Yep, these were missed slots - wasted slots. Naturally, I don't know the circumstances.


Just for your information you wouldn't wait hours for an asthma attack - you'd get seen very quick. The airway is arguably the most important part of your body and asthma threatens it so you are most likely classed as very urgent at the slowest urgent.
 
So now the NHS crisis that started with the botched introduction of 111, then spread to A&E is now spreading to ambulances according to C4 news. Ambulance and paramedic resources are now so scarce that there's something of a boom for companies providing private ambulance services - sometimes staffed by a single person with one week's training under their belt! Now even the NHS ambulance trusts are sending out ambulances without paramedics.I find this deeply disturbing, the powers that be want to close down more A&E departments and the main justification for doing so is that care and safety is not diminished as long as a paramedic gets to you within a certain time. Well what now?

I think whatever you do, don't get ill this winter :(
 
Well what now?

Well you have the Dr Foster league labels saying we are bad compared to everyone else. The league tables that are not peer reviewed, employ different methodologies towards each country and are not allowed to be checked because his highness won't release the data.

Not that it would benefit him of course. Not that he was shady in the way the whole thing set up.

The long and short is shaft the NHS so much that the only thing to do will be to privatise it.

Cameron's a dick. OK for him when he wanted all the stops pulled out for his kid. A bit different for everyone else. Typical.
 
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