Save the NHS!

Moses said:
Did you see the bit where he claimed some would work ninety hour weeks..?
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When I was a junior it said 48 hours on my contract - I actually did close to 70. That's with the safeguarding in place. When monitoring came around - when we were told lie what hours we were doing by the boss "as he was signing us off" and the end of the rotation. I had some bad experiences and so did many of my colleagues.

That's one side of it. The other side is purposefully staying behind to help out way past your allotted time due to staff shortages or concerns of ward cover. I and plenty of colleagues did this without question.

That safeguarding measure is being removed. Not even monitoring in place. You can only imagine what is going to happen.
 
Moses said:
These doctors who are worried about it could work to rule rather than bending over like you did? Wouldn't that be more sensible than assuming it's going to happen to them before it has?
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I don't think medicine is really a profession where work to rule is going to happen.

"Sorry, you may be dying, I have done my hours for the day".
 
Moses said:
These doctors who are worried about it could work to rule rather than bending over like you did? Wouldn't that be more sensible than assuming it's going to happen to them before it has?
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I was fresh out of uni and wish I had spoken up back then. You have to remember also that some wish to stay in that speciality like I did at the time.

With regards to bending over - why do you think the doctors are protesting?
 
Moses said:
Clearly people aren't going to walk off in the middle of treating people. They could however refuse to come in/tell them they're not going to do extra shifts/whatever - then obviously gaps, if they're there, will have to be filled by expensive locums. And if doctors start working 90 hour weeks I'm sure the press would have a field day.
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The NHS is currently bleeding cash precisely because it is using expensive locum services.
 
OldCoals said:
The NHS is currently bleeding cash precisely because it is using expensive locum services.
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which is only going to get worse with the tories attacking doctors pay and conditions, as the departments will need the staff still. Hunt is a moron, he's lost the confidence of doctors, nurses and all NHS staff, surely as health secretary he has to go!

same old tories time and time again, they cannot be trusted with the NHS
 
Moses said:
Clearly people aren't going to walk off in the middle of treating people. They could however refuse to come in/tell them they're not going to do extra shifts/whatever - then obviously gaps, if they're there, will have to be filled by expensive locums. And if doctors start working 90 hour weeks I'm sure the press would have a field day.
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Such a naive statement. Right OK I'm not going to come in today and risk the safety of patients and put further pressure on my colleagues? My employer cuts my pay and thinks about disciplinary action whilst my boss ticks of my monitoring for me and says I'm doing 48 hours.
 
Moses said:
So? I know that :confused:. I'm not talking about what's sensible overall, I'm saying what the junior doctors should do if they're being made to work ninety hours a week, etc, like you said...



Further pressure on the management/finances, when they have to get locums in. Doctors would face disciplinary action for working to their contracts..?

Why have doctors allowed their bosses to falsify these records up until now, and are only kicking off now? How does that work when it comes to negligence claims? :eek:
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I've already explained that to you.
You've also completely missed the point of my last post.
What does negligence claims have anything to do with all of this?
 
Monitoring as always been a major issue. The problem is since the EWTD we have to opt out to comply with rotas then basically falsify the number of hours worked. For example if I'm scheduled to work 9-5 that's great but I might not leave until 6.30 or 7, yet we have to write down that we worked only till 5pm. The hospital will simply state that you should have left at 5...not so easy when you've got jobs to be done and a sick patient.

If I tell the truth on my monitoring, rota co-ordinators will contact my consultant and they will make me change it. I don't have much of a choice as he/she will sign me off as competent in that that rotation. If I don't get that every 4 months I don't progress.

Doctors don't go into medicine for money, we could be earning much more doing other jobs but there is a growing feeling of being constantly undermined, undervalued and not appreciated. We want to protect our patients and the NHS but this will only happen if you have a happy workforce prepared to go that extra mile like 99% of doctors.

The new contacts will basically mean longer working hours for us, nothing to do with 7 day or weekend cover. It also allows hospital trusts pay only a basic rate of pay on Saturday classing it as normal working hours. Why shouldn't my Satuday afternoon be more valuable than a Tuesday morning? I have a wife and mortgage to pay? All we're asking is fair pay for hard work. After doing 5 years of medical school and 4 years as a junior doctor I get paid less than an assistant manager at a pret a manger...Sorry if this sounds like a rant!
 
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shadow_boxer said:
Monitoring as always been a major issue. The problem is since the EWTD we have to opt out to comply with rotas then basically falsify the number of hours worked. For example if I'm scheduled to work 9-5 that's great but I might not leave until 6.30 or 7, yet we have to write down that we worked only till 5pm. The hospital will simply state that you should have left at 5...not so easy when you've got jobs to be done and a sick patient.

If I tell the truth on my monitoring, rota co-ordinators will contact my consultant and they will make me change it. I don't have much of a choice as he/she will sign me off as competent in that that rotation. If I don't get that every 4 months I don't progress.

Doctors don't go into medicine for money, we could be earning much more doing other jobs but there is a growing feeling of being constantly undermined, undervalued and not appreciated. We want to protect our patients and the NHS but this will only happen if you have a happy workforce prepared to go that extra mile like 99% of doctors.

The new contacts will basically mean longer working hours for us, nothing to do with 7 day or weekend cover. It also allows hospital trusts pay only a basic rate of pay on Saturday classing it as normal working hours. Why shouldn't my Satuday afternoon be more valuable than a Tuesday morning? I have a wife and mortgage to pay? All we're asking is fair pay for hard work. After doing 5 years of medical school and 4 years as a junior doctor I get paid less than an assistant manager at a pret a manger...Sorry if this sounds like a rant!
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I agree, weekend/night work should always pay a premium, and doctors should get paid a premium for it just like other workers. All professional degree educated jobs should pay more than retail monkey management, I'm a social worker, I feel your pain, I could earn more at pret too. Solidarity with the doctors, I hope you bring down the hunt of a health secretary.
 
shadow_boxer said:
Monitoring as always been a major issue. The problem is since the EWTD we have to opt out to comply with rotas then basically falsify the number of hours worked. For example if I'm scheduled to work 9-5 that's great but I might not leave until 6.30 or 7, yet we have to write down that we worked only till 5pm. The hospital will simply state that you should have left at 5...not so easy when you've got jobs to be done and a sick patient.

If I tell the truth on my monitoring, rota co-ordinators will contact my consultant and they will make me change it. I don't have much of a choice as he/she will sign me off as competent in that that rotation. If I don't get that every 4 months I don't progress.

Doctors don't go into medicine for money, we could be earning much more doing other jobs but there is a growing feeling of being constantly undermined, undervalued and not appreciated. We want to protect our patients and the NHS but this will only happen if you have a happy workforce prepared to go that extra mile like 99% of doctors.

The new contacts will basically mean longer working hours for us, nothing to do with 7 day or weekend cover. It also allows hospital trusts pay only a basic rate of pay on Saturday classing it as normal working hours. Why shouldn't my Satuday afternoon be more valuable than a Tuesday morning? I have a wife and mortgage to pay? All we're asking is fair pay for hard work. After doing 5 years of medical school and 4 years as a junior doctor I get paid less than an assistant manager at a pret a manger...Sorry if this sounds like a rant!
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My feelings exactly. Weekends aren't a normal working day, it's time I want to spend with my family. If I work a weekend and need childcare it'll be significantly more expensive but I'll be paid as a weekday - nonsense. The same goes for evenings, I'm happy to work my share of evenings but expect the sacrifice to be recognised in my pay.

The solution to weekend working isn't to just forcing more staff into working weekends for less money.
 
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Moses said:
What is the solution, if enough won't choose to do it?
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Weekend oncalls is part and parcel of training. It's where we learn the most. I have no issue working Saturdays or Sunday's as part of a fair rota but it I expect to be paid more than I would on a Tuesday morning for it. The current system of remuneration For unsociable hours allows this, the new contract doesn't.
 
Moses said:
But making people work at weekends = okay?
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We already work weekends, there's no choice about it - I don't think anyone has a problem with this as the current contract pays us extra for it.

The main issue with weekend working currently is Consultant cover which is separate from the junior doctor contract.
 
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Moses said:
There's not uniformity of service across the working week, is there?

Oh, and Sunday would still classed as unsociable, right?
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There's not uniformity at junior doctor level or consultant level, I'm not convinced that there needs to be. There is no need to provide elective surgery at the weekends for instance.

Evenings and weekends are antisociable.
 
Moses said:
That some will be working ninety hour weeks :o.
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If you want more doctors available but you are not going to increase the amount of doctors there then what option is there other than have them working longer.

it is a cost cutting exercise being passed off as something else.

And I mentioned they said there was still an effect after taking into account the fact more seriously ill people were admitted, etc...
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But that was not part of the research so for Hunt to band it around as fact is wrong.
 
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