Save the NHS!

True. They also basically have little employment protection as they're classed as only having worked at a hospital for at most a year generally, with each new hospital a new contract, which is why you hear how this will quickly be phased in, because each next job/hospital rotation means a new contract.
 
I hope that all junior doctors walk out until their demands are met. I cannot seriously believe how people are still being sucked in by the hyperbole from the Government. They can easily afford to pay these fantastic people.

Let me remind you Mr *unt had a hand in not just the letter to the press scandal but also highly surreptitious behavior regarding BSB.

Junior doctors should not feel guilt at lives being at risk for a few days... Long term this will affect 1000% more lives.

Pay is not the issue, the government and the UK have lots of money... Its just greed and a way of hitting some of the people who imo work some of the longest and demanding hours for a relative pittance. Thanks to all you JDs out there
 
Minstadave said:
You clearly have an axe to grind but even so what utter nonsense. They're funded out of the public purse. Commissioning has changed but they're not private in any meaningful sense.
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You clearly don't understand the current situation then as my wife is a practice nurse.

The NHS pays the surgery for each procedure they carry out, some things pay more than others so this is where the emphasis is. The doctors are shareholders in LocalSurgery.Ltd and get paid dividends like any other private company director in order to keep their tax liability down. They get to pay into the national NHS pension plan but otherwise it is run like a private business providing services to the NHS.

Just because your local GP surgery is called Ye Olde Surgery, doesn't mean it can't be run by Virgin http://www.virgincare.co.uk/service-hub/gps-practice/ or Tesco
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/tesco-begins-work-on-new-gp-910357.

So what's utter nonsense is your understanding of how the NHS actually works as more patents see their 'privatised' GP than their government employed hospital junior doctor.
 
Wow your wife's a nurse, amazing! My wife's a GP so pull the other one.

They're still bound by a Government contract, they're paid by the government, their targets are set by the government, and the vast majority see only NHS patients and commission services directly from the NHS. They've moved the day to day management of the practice out of the Governements control, buts that it.

Very little has changed in the latest round of primary care restructuring really. The practices have always got a pot of money with which they provided healthcare and ran their business. The difference is now they have more control over commisioning and day to day working, so if they get a cheap deal on corn removal from Bupa they can send their patients there.

It's nothing like how a private GP works in the slightest.
 
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Minstadave said:
Wow your wife's a nurse, amazing! My wife's a GP so pull the other one.

They're still bound by a Government contract, they're paid by the government, their targets are set by the government, and the vast majority see only NHS patients and commission services directly from the NHS. They've moved the day to day management of the practice out of the Governements control, buts that it.

Very little has changed in the latest round of primary care restructuring really. The practices have always got a pot of money with which they provided healthcare and ran their business. The difference is now they have more control over commisioning and day to day working, so if they get a cheap deal on corn removal from Bupa they can send their patients there.

It's nothing like how a private GP works in the slightest.
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Your first sentence makes you sound like a total **** actually and I can't be bothered debating this with someone like you.
 
I realise it's not a popular position to take in this country, but I really don't like the NHS and I do anything possible to avoid ever using it. Mostly by staying healthy!

I realise if I'm hit by a car I'll need it, and be grateful something is there to pick up the pieces, just like the fire brigade and police service. But other countries do this, and a lot more besides, and they don't have to have a soviet era monolithic entity to administer it.
 
I think the biggest problem is that some people just don't seem to realise what the NHS does offer to the poorest and most vulnerable in society today. Social care funding is being slashed year on year and its the NHS which suffers as a result and often gets left to pick up the pieces. The feeling today on the wards was as bad as I've ever known it. Morale is at rock bottom.

I hope the BMA take a real stand now, not only to protect the working conditions and safeguards to Doctors' contacts but also to proctect the future of the NHS. Although with a heavy heart and sincere regret, I'd be in full support of a complete walk out including emergency cover. It is really now or never. Now that the "junior" doctors contract has been imposed on us it's only a matter of time before the rest of the NHS staff get the same.
 
So, is it the case that doctors will have to work more hours, they will have to work more antisocial hours, or that they will get paid less for working antisocial hours?
 
danielanthony said:
You clearly don't understand the current situation then as my wife is a practice nurse.

The NHS pays the surgery for each procedure they carry out, some things pay more than others so this is where the emphasis is. The doctors are shareholders in LocalSurgery.Ltd and get paid dividends like any other private company director in order to keep their tax liability down. They get to pay into the national NHS pension plan but otherwise it is run like a private business providing services to the NHS.

Just because your local GP surgery is called Ye Olde Surgery, doesn't mean it can't be run by Virgin http://www.virgincare.co.uk/service-hub/gps-practice/ or Tesco
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/tesco-begins-work-on-new-gp-910357.

So what's utter nonsense is your understanding of how the NHS actually works as more patents see their 'privatised' GP than their government employed hospital junior doctor.
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Just to echo what MinstaDave said, this isn't how general practice is financed. In fact, it's almost the reverse of this.
 
Nitefly said:
So, is it the case that doctors will have to work more hours, they will have to work more antisocial hours, or that they will get paid less for working antisocial hours?
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The worry is that it is potentially all three of the above. Safeguards to protect against excessive hours are being undermined. Trusts will not be as heavily penalised for overworking doctors and therefore more likely to exploit their staff. As pay on Saturday for the majority will no longer attract the banding payment for unsocialable hours it'll be more likely that we'll be doing more weekends with an overall paycut.
 
OldCoals said:
Actually, I think he will be missed.

The fact that he hasn't upped sticks and left the NHS tells me this isn't about money.
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I love my job deeply. I've been a doctor 8 years and a paediatrician for 6. 2 years to go until I'm a consultant. I will stay and fight for as long as necessary but my job involves a huge amount of risk (both to myself and my patients) and a lot of time away from my family - if the government wants to take the **** I will leave rather than roll over.

I also love the NHS and everything it stands for, you have a preterm baby that needs 3 months of ITU care and another 3 months in hospital costing hundreds of thousands of pounds and the care is there, 24 hours a day, not a penny charged to you. Seeing it piecemeal taken apart and my profession relegated to undervalued shift workers hurts.
 
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Nitefly said:
So, is it the case that doctors will have to work more hours, they will have to work more antisocial hours, or that they will get paid less for working antisocial hours?
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Initially it'll be the same pay for established doctors because of pay protection (I thought this wasn't a pay cut mr hunt? Why does pay protection exist then?). Less for newly qualified doctors but weekend working may go up - but the governments own contract actually discourages weekend working which is the opposite of what they told us they were doing this for.

Then pay protection runs out and some will be around the same, some a little better off and many will lose pay (especially if you do your on calls from home).

In the mean time the government will push all other healthcare staff to work Saturday's for plain time, which has been the real goal of this entire process.

The relatively robust system to punish trusts for overworking doctors will be removed. Which is shameful.

There has also been an attack on doing extra work:

- external Locum agency pay has been severely capped
- internal Locum pay will be limited even lower
- you will be contractually obliged to offer your free time to your trust before working for any other hospital (this was often used to get experience at bigger hospitals)

The sad bit about the attack on locums was that they were used as a sticking plaster for rota gaps and low recruitment levels. Rather than fixing recruitment the government is trying to force its existing staff into an aggressively controlled and price fixed labour market.
 
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