Save the NHS!

"That's the standard technique of privatization; defund, make sure things don't work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital." ~ Noam Chomsky

Exactly what the Tory scum are doing right now. Anyone who voted for them should be ****ing ashamed and deported.
 
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LateX'Dog said:
"That's the standard technique of privatization; defund, make sure things don't work, people get angry, you hnand it over to private capital." ~ Noam Chomsky

Exactly what the Tory scum are doing right now. Anyone who voted for them should be ****ing ashamed and deported.
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Been a while since I ribbed the Mrs about voting them in!! :mad::D:p:(
 
joeyjojo said:
The NHS Reinstatement Bill came up today, but was cut short because of time. Possibly because of some time-wasters earlier in the day, I'm not sure.
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Got an email update on this:

...Inside the House of Commons the opportunity for the Bill getting sensible debating time rapidly disappeared, as Conservative MPs filibustered. Finally they finished and the NHS Bill had a chance. But the previous Bill received 4.5hrs, which left the NHS Bill with precisely 17 minutes. As Peter Roderick, lawyer and co-author of the NHS Bill said in the viewing gallery "17 lousy minutes. A contemptuous Parliament unworthy of the people."

Which means there are now some actions to take on filibustering:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-filibustering-in-the-house-of-commons
http://www.parliament.uk/business/c.../parliament-2015/private-members-bills-15-16/

Edit: I see what they mean now on the recording (see my post above). 4 Tory MPs spoke for 3.5 hours between them (from 09.30 to 13.00) about a very minor Bill before Caroline Lucas made a complaint (click "13:01:23 Point of Order" to hear it). They still killed another hour after that! Absolutely disgraceful. :mad: :mad: Pauline Latham (at 13:23) is just taking the ****, accusing the SNP/Greens of obstructing democracy!!!

Edit 2: Here's a link to Caroline's point of order in the full transcript of this filibuster:

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it within your power to suggest to Government Members that they begin to bring their comments to a close? They have now been debating a two-clause Bill for three and a half hours—a Bill that was debated last year and then withdrawn from the Floor of the House. I think this practice risks bringing the House into disrepute. There are so many people who really want us to get on to the next business about the NHS, which is incredibly important. For these few Conservative Members to be talking for so long is simply not courteous either to the rest of the House or to the people outside the building who want to see what is going on.
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http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2016-03-11a.545.2#g598.0

I copy pasted the entire thing (from the source) and it comes to 38,867 words!!! (Including the names of the MPs, so maybe 1,000 word overestimate.)
 
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OldCoals said:
Emergency care is not being denied to anyone.
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They're on strike and no longer providing emergency care? A&E departments all over the country are already stretched and they're going to be without doctors for 2 days. How are they not denying emergency care? Surely doing this is going to cause suffering for thousands of people?
 
Cyanide said:
They're on strike and no longer providing emergency care? A&E departments all over the country are already stretched and they're going to be without doctors for 2 days. How are they not denying emergency care? Surely doing this is going to cause suffering for thousands of people?
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The long term impacts far more people. Both service users and potential service users (that's everyone in the UK). I support the measures again as the Tories are doing their usual thing. The NHS is anathema to their ideology.

Its a load of crap about protecting them.
 
Cyanide said:
They're on strike and no longer providing emergency care? A&E departments all over the country are already stretched and they're going to be without doctors for 2 days. How are they not denying emergency care? Surely doing this is going to cause suffering for thousands of people?
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Consultants will be covering for them, hence there will be emergency care.
 
RaohNS said:
The long term impacts far more people. Both service users and potential service users (that's everyone in the UK). I support the measures again as the Tories are doing their usual thing. The NHS is anathema to their ideology.

Its a load of crap about protecting them.
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So let the changes come in and take action via a work to rule - that'll soon show how ineffective these proposed changes are.

Striking for 2 days at the start of the month and a 2 day full strike at the end of the month just goes to further the argument that this is about money and not patient care.
 
Cyanide said:
So let the changes come in and take action via a work to rule - that'll soon show how ineffective these proposed changes are.

Striking for 2 days at the start of the month and a 2 day full strike at the end of the month just goes to further the argument that this is about money and not patient care.
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I suspect that most Doctors can't "work to rule", you can't simply stop treating someone because it's the end of your shift, and can't refuse to treat someone because it might take longer than the rest of your shift.

This is one of the things that the government and NHS managers have known and exploited for years.

So you understaff the department and rely on the fact that your staff are unable to simply say "well it's 5pm, my shift is over, sorry Mr Smith you need to hold that bandaged over your wound and someone will be with you when they are free".

From memory there are various rules and laws that the doctors have to abide by when it comes to treating patients that basically make "work to rule" impossible.
 
Cyanide said:
But it's ok to strike and not treat anyone at all?
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People are still getting treated. Also if they weren't and their striking results in less doctors leaving the nhs, then i think that is fine. a few days of planned shortage in staff compared to an ever crumbling staff list and increased agency costs is nothing.
 
Cyanide said:
But it's ok to strike and not treat anyone at all?
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If you strike the management have the time to make full arrangements to provide cover for the shift, which is part of the reason the Doctors are giving multiple weeks of notice for the strikes..

If you work to rule, you can end up walking out on patients during treatment or just carrying on as normal to avoid prosecution or professional misconduct charges for leaving patients when they are not safe to be left.


Work to rule only really works if you are in a job where your labour is needed, you routinely work longer than the contracted hours (both of which apply to most of the NHS medical roles, and large parts of the Police and Fire services), but where if you stop on time it doesn't affect safety.
With the medical profession you also run into the issue that most people don't want to leave their friends who might already be struggling with added work when they might be able to help, and don't want to leave patients who need help.


It's far easier to work to rule in say a manufacturing or retail job than in one where you're dealing with complex situations and the wellbeing of others is at risk.
 
As has been said about a million times Dolph, Doctors aren't asking for a penny more money. They just don't want a pay cut and a contract that is draconian and destructive. The contract negotiations have always been under a cost neutral premise. However the government wants us to take a paycut and has used 7 day working to try and push it through.

We don't want a pay cut.
We don't want Saturdays to be treated as a weekday.
We don't want to have to work extra shifts, if we choose to, for our trust at their fixed rate.
We don't want a contract that destroys recruitment, leaves rotas empty and may ruin what remains of the NHS.

We don't want an imposed contract.

I welcome the walk out, emergency care will happen, it won't be perfect. If the government want to provide decent emergency care they're welcome to back down from imposition and stop treating us like mugs.
 
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Dolph said:
But all the bma demands revolve around more money for doctors, not patient care...

http://www.bma.org.uk/working-for-c...ome/ddrb-recommendations-analysis-for-juniors
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So they should be forced to work for pay and hours they don't want to?

Treat it like another job. If they are unhappy with the new terms they will leave the nhs and it will only cost the taxpayers far more to fill the gap with agencies and there will be an even lower amount of doctors ready to treat people.

They are free to protest the same as everyone else, regardless of whether the new hours/pay is reasonable or not.
 
Avenged7Fold said:
So they should be forced to work for pay and hours they don't want to?

Treat it like another job. If they are unhappy with the new terms they will leave the nhs and it will only cost the taxpayers far more to fill the gap with agencies and there will be an even lower amount of doctors ready to treat people.

They are free to protest the same as everyone else, regardless of whether the new hours/pay is reasonable or not.
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They are free to leave, of course they are. However, most won't because the nhs is a monopoly employer.

Striking is what people do when they can't leave and get something better and all they have left is blackmail, bullying and intimidation.
 
Minstadave said:
As has been said about a million times Dolph, Doctors aren't asking for a penny more money. They just don't want a pay cut and a contract that is draconian and destructive. The contract negotiations have always been under a cost neutral premise. However the government wants us to take a paycut and has used 7 day working to try and push it through.

We don't want a pay cut.
We don't want Saturdays to be treated as a weekday.
We don't want to have to work extra shifts, if we choose to, for our trust at their fixed rate.
We don't want a contract that destroys recruitment, leaves rotas empty and may ruin what remains of the NHS.

We don't want an imposed contract.

I welcome the walk out, emergency care will happen, it won't be perfect. If the government want to provide decent emergency care they're welcome to back down from imposition and stop treating us like mugs.
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The NHS doesn't exist to please doctors. The purpose of the nhs is to treat patients, and if the doctor's contract workso against this aim, as it does currently by forcing staffing choices to be made for financial rather than need reasons, then it has to be changed.

My mother in law is currently in hospital, she was admitted the week of the last doctors strike, and over the last 3 weeks I have seen the nhs at its best and worst, on different floors of the same hospital. Watching the nhs fail someone I care about, because the doctors are refusing to do their damn job because they think the nhs should be run for their benefit rather than the patient hasn't made me more sympathetic to the doctors....

Why are you so against what your union published on their own website before they started pretending this was about the patient? You admit above that it isn't.
 
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