Schiit stack or gsx 1000?

[jubei]

Hi all,

I am in the market to upgrade my headphones from my HyperX Clouds as they are on their way out (strap being dodgy) and thought i might see if i can upgrade my sound as a whole somewhat.

My current setup is a Soundblaster Z, with my Clouds plugged in as well as my Aego M speakers. I can switch between the two using the Z series control panel.

I am considering getting the gsx 1000 or the modi/magni 2 ubers and maybe some dt770s or the like to get some good sound. Ideally i would like to have both speakers and headphones plugged in and be switchable via a hardware button.

My usages are probably 75% gaming (fps), 20% movies, 5% music.

Could anyone give me some advice on the best hardware to buy/good headphones for comfort etc. I will just buy a separate mic like a modmic etc.

Trying to keep the budget to sub £500 but there is wiggle room if it makes a significant difference.

Cheers

 

[Zhuni]

IF there's any music involved at all I can't recommend the GSX1000 the amp and dac sound bad even on easy to drive phones for my taste anyway. I'd personally consider the Fulla 2 as well. I got one after having the stack and love it! For a PC set up it just feels really good. And has some decent power for usb driven. I run it with Atmos for headphones and don't miss my GSX at all.

 

[jubei]

IF there's any music involved at all I can't recommend the GSX1000 the amp and dac sound bad even on easy to drive phones for my taste anyway. I'd personally consider the Fulla 2 as well. I got one after having the stack and love it! For a PC set up it just feels really good. And has some decent power for usb driven. I run it with Atmos for headphones and don't miss my GSX at all.

Yeah i first heard of the fulla yesterday, will take a harder look at it cheers

 

[EsaT]

Ideally i would like to have both speakers and headphones plugged in and be switchable via a hardware button.

How about hotkey for switching between headphones and speakers?
Possibly also switching other settings like disabling binaural/surround processing.
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=381416


Sennheiser GSX would be complete all around downgrade in everything but hype.
Those audiophile overpriced GSXes use cheap ass Conexant DAC/output buffer chip meant for phones/tablets and below most Realtek chips...
ALC889 used by 30£ Audidy Fx is above it!
SB Z's DAC chips are basically two steps higher quality ones.
Also GSX's 1 Vrms into 32 ohms is weaker than even Realteks.

Neither is Sennheiser's binaural simulation better.

In fact haven't yet found any material which would "show" these new fashion hyped headphone sounds being at level of Creative's binaural-simulation.
(which has been developed for gaming and not for music or movies)

Unless wanting to go for some stereo/basic downmix you don't want fashion DAC.
Just listen end of this starting from 13mins and after that go back to start.

And SB Z would handle average Beyers quite fine.
600 ohms would likely cause some situations with inadequate volume with high dynamic range material and with 32ohm variant damping factor would suffer.
80 ohm would be better for damping factor and 250 ohms very good without demanding highest level output voltage.

Or just put no snake oil nonsense Objective2 between card and headphones.
http://www.headnhifi.com/
Looks like free shipping in July.
(should I order one DIY kit for sake of it...)



As for headphones unless having noisy environment open design DT990 would have better for gaming wide soundstage and for open design good amount of bass for that fun factor in games.
Because of same physical design they're all equally easy to mic mod even without commercial Modmic.
DT 770 Pro mic mod

AKG's K712 would be another headphone with wide sound stage and sound balancing between neutral and fun with good amount of bass.
Having myself used very bass neutral Sennheiser HD595s before DT990 also movies benefit from having some robustness in bass.

 

[Rroff]

Sennheiser GSX would be complete all around downgrade in everything but hype.
Those audiophile overpriced GSXes use cheap ass Conexant DAC/output buffer chip meant for phones/tablets and below most Realtek chips...
ALC889 used by 30£ Audidy Fx is above it!
SB Z's DAC chips are basically two steps higher quality ones.
Also GSX's 1 Vrms into 32 ohms is weaker than even Realteks.

I think the output drive is what lets it down - the DAC itself isn't terrible - better than 100db SNR, 98db DR puts it into mid to high end soundcard territory a lot more will come down to the surrounding implementation and the output capabilities and the GSX's output power is quite poor for really taking control of anything other than the most sensitive drivers. The output from the DAC itself is reasonably transparent - with a well matched amp it should be fairly reasonable.

 

[shankly1985]

Am a massive fan of the GSX so for gaming I would go with that. The only downside I can honestly give the GSX is its asking price! Should be around £120 but in saying that i do feel its in a league of its own when it comes to surround sound accuracy.

@EsaT
That SBX vs GSX I hear a clear difference on CSGO, Listen when the audio goes from rear left to right! On the GSX the audio continues to play naturally, where on the SBZ they is a moment pause.. Also the GSX sounds much better and more natural when Reverb is switched off it also removes the echo effect, While the SBZ Reverb is always on you can only lower the effect.

 

[a66as]

I have a GSX 1000 and they are pretty decent for movies and gaming.

 

[jubei]

...snip


As for headphones unless having noisy environment open design DT990 would have better for gaming wide soundstage and for open design good amount of bass for that fun factor in games.
Because of same physical design they're all equally easy to mic mod even without commercial Modmic.
DT 770 Pro mic mod

AKG's K712 would be another headphone with wide sound stage and sound balancing between neutral and fun with good amount of bass.
Having myself used very bass neutral Sennheiser HD595s before DT990 also movies benefit from having some robustness in bass.

Appreciate all of that information mate, I was actually leaning away from the gsx after hearing that the mic port on it only supports lower quality sound etc and read somewhere else that the chips in it were ones used in mobiles.

As for headphones, i originally looked at 990s but only ever see people talk about the 770s. With the 990 there are a bunch of versions, rainforest has a 990 premium, would that be your recommendation?

These are used upstairs in a room across the landing from my bedroom. When my wife goes to bed are they going to leak so much sound that shes gonna moan at me despite me wearing headphones or would it only really leak into the room i am in?

Cheers

 

[EsaT]

I think the output drive is what lets it down - the DAC itself isn't terrible - better than 100db SNR, 98db DR puts it into mid to high end soundcard territory a lot more will come down to the surrounding implementation and the output capabilities and the GSX's output power is quite poor for really taking control of anything other than the most sensitive drivers. The output from the DAC itself is reasonably transparent - with a well matched amp it should be fairly reasonable.

Granted it's above bottom of the barrel stuff like ALC892 (or some even worser older ones) and objectively speaking likely not that far from level needed to be transparent for human hearing.
But it definitely isn't even near mid class sound cards when cheapest/lowest end of all Creatives £30 Audigy Fx is better.
I mean doesn't need much searching to find people bashing all Creative cards having bad parts because it's not some fashion/holy brand...

So for the price Sennheiser charges from those GSXes every part of it is let down.
(like Creative's Recon3D cards before Z-serie)
For quarter of current price it would be different thing.

That SBX vs GSX I hear a clear difference on CSGO, Listen when the audio goes from rear left to right! On the GSX the audio continues to play naturally, where on the SBZ they is a moment pause.. Also the GSX sounds much better and more natural when Reverb is switched off it also removes the echo effect, While the SBZ Reverb is always on you can only lower the effect.

Haven't found GSX having advantage in any part with headphones I have tested.
But that's where size/shape differences of head and ear play big part so it's definitely possible and guaranteed to have differences in that.

Would be so nice to have some standard and possibility to get "personal HRTF" measured which could be used to fine tune these binaural-simulations.
But guess we just have to keep dreaming...

 

[Rroff]

Yeah the price is another story.

 

[EsaT]

Appreciate all of that information mate, I was actually leaning away from the gsx after hearing that the mic port on it only supports lower quality sound etc and read somewhere else that the chips in it were ones used in mobiles.

As for headphones, i originally looked at 990s but only ever see people talk about the 770s. With the 990 there are a bunch of versions, rainforest has a 990 premium, would that be your recommendation?

These are used upstairs in a room across the landing from my bedroom. When my wife goes to bed are they going to leak so much sound that shes gonna moan at me despite me wearing headphones or would it only really leak into the room i am in?

Inputs are one thing used to cut costs for lowering price and obviously phone/tablet has even less need for higher quality input than PC.
So Conexant didn't put that much energy/money into that.
And then Sennheiser wasn't eager to lower excessive profit margin for separate ADC...


Unless other people are literally in same room and close to you sound leaking isn't big danger.
With driver couple centimeters away from ear you're far in risky volumes and hearing on its its way to "early retirement" before there's power to produce much of sound pressure at distance of many meters...
And especially though any door/wall stronger than toilet paper.
Even standard "non-mechanical" keyboard sounds reach lot farther and much more easily.


Other measure of scale for sound leak is that you can add headset style microphone without problems from sound leaking to it...
Or you'll be at major hearing loss starting in seconds/minute sound pressure level!


For awfully lots of people sound quality means more bass and DT770 has that.
Closed headphone design has its advantage in easy to make very strong lowest "rumbling" bass.
Because of physics dynamic driver open headphones have harder time in lower bass and can't match that lowest part.
Hence closed designs being used more in fashionable headsphones to have that strong bass, usually at expense of everything else.

Beyond that open design is easier to balance along with usually lot bigger sound stage.
If you look at headphones ranked highest by music lovers you'll note that they're usually open or at least semi-open designs.
Another advantage is lack of heat insulation in open design, so ears won't sweat unless temperature is enough to make you sweat any way.
Having thousands hours of experience from closed cup in products of Peltor I really like that no sweating part.
And while Sennheiser HD595/8/9 are shy on bass like most open headphones DT990 has good "punch" in it.


Premium or Edition is term used by Beyer for "music pleasure" use models with least clamping force and most "decorated" look.
They have also this kind storage&carrying case:
http://kenrockwell.com/audio/beyer/dt-880/D3S_7430-case-1200.jpg

Pro version of DT880/990 is meant for studio use next to mixing table with some more clamping force and coiled/curled cable making it less ideal for home use in which you might move little/switch position in chair.
(there's also DT990 Pro Limited Edition which has straight 3m cable)

If wanting some colour there's actually some customizing options for ear pads and some parts:
http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/shop/hah/headphones-and-headsets/at-home/hifi-manufaktur.html
All dark with dark red rings looks nice...
Just defaults at output impedance sensitive 32 ohms instead of 250 ohms.

32 ohm versions of DT770-990 models are basically meant for mobile use on devices with lowest operating voltages.
600 ohm versions are for "when you have volts to throw around" (used as yardstick for voltage hungry cans in Objective2 design) but those aren't commonly available.

 

[jubei]

Inputs are one thing used to cut costs for lowering price and obviously phone/tablet has even less need for higher quality input than PC.
So Conexant didn't put that much energy/money into that.
And then Sennheiser wasn't eager to lower excessive profit margin for separate ADC...


Unless other people are literally in same room and close to you sound leaking isn't big danger.
With driver couple centimeters away from ear you're far in risky volumes and hearing on its its way to "early retirement" before there's power to produce much of sound pressure at distance of many meters...
And especially though any door/wall stronger than toilet paper.
Even standard "non-mechanical" keyboard sounds reach lot farther and much more easily.


Other measure of scale for sound leak is that you can add headset style microphone without problems from sound leaking to it...
Or you'll be at major hearing loss starting in seconds/minute sound pressure level!


For awfully lots of people sound quality means more bass and DT770 has that.
Closed headphone design has its advantage in easy to make very strong lowest "rumbling" bass.
Because of physics dynamic driver open headphones have harder time in lower bass and can't match that lowest part.
Hence closed designs being used more in fashionable headsphones to have that strong bass, usually at expense of everything else.

Beyond that open design is easier to balance along with usually lot bigger sound stage.
If you look at headphones ranked highest by music lovers you'll note that they're usually open or at least semi-open designs.
Another advantage is lack of heat insulation in open design, so ears won't sweat unless temperature is enough to make you sweat any way.
Having thousands hours of experience from closed cup in products of Peltor I really like that no sweating part.
And while Sennheiser HD595/8/9 are shy on bass like most open headphones DT990 has good "punch" in it.


Premium or Edition is term used by Beyer for "music pleasure" use models with least clamping force and most "decorated" look.
They have also this kind storage&carrying case:
http://kenrockwell.com/audio/beyer/dt-880/D3S_7430-case-1200.jpg

Pro version of DT880/990 is meant for studio use next to mixing table with some more clamping force and coiled/curled cable making it less ideal for home use in which you might move little/switch position in chair.
(there's also DT990 Pro Limited Edition which has straight 3m cable)

If wanting some colour there's actually some customizing options for ear pads and some parts:
http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/shop/hah/headphones-and-headsets/at-home/hifi-manufaktur.html
All dark with dark red rings looks nice...
Just defaults at output impedance sensitive 32 ohms instead of 250 ohms.

32 ohm versions of DT770-990 models are basically meant for mobile use on devices with lowest operating voltages.
600 ohm versions are for "when you have volts to throw around" (used as yardstick for voltage hungry cans in Objective2 design) but those aren't commonly available.

again ace info mate thanks. I'm set on the dt990 for sure. So it sounds like i want the premium ones as i have to wear glasses these days so the clamping force is probably less than ideal. Does higher ohms = better quality? I wanting 600 or 250? Currently got the sbz but happy to buy an amp if it will make much diff.

Cheers again

 

[EsaT]

sounds like i want the premium ones as i have to wear glasses these days so the clamping force is probably less than ideal.

Yep, lower clamping force is good
Now if I had that as option with those "Peltors", knit cap between them and ears is already bad enough without sun glasses.

While head band clamping force of Pro-version could be adjusted by bending it (steel instead of Chinese plastic) that coiled cable would be still limiting without ouput connector nearby.
Edition/Premium doesn't even cost that much over Pro version nowadays.
Even that customization doesn't cost much of extra.


There's use of thinner/lighter wire in voice coil but how much real effect to sound it has in practise is hard to say.
Slight differencences in parts in general could likely cause as much differences between batches.
But 600 ohm ones are definitely voltage needing especially for peaks of higher dynamic range content.

250 ohm ones work with more devices.
Even integrated Realteks can drive them decently.
Was actually surprised by sound quality when just for curiosity tested basic level motherboard's cheap ass ALC892.
Then again because of not lowest impedance they aren't sensitive to interference/noise like some 32 ohm headphones would be.

 

[jubei]

I've ordered the 250ohm dt990 premium to arrive Tuesday and will update this with my impressions. Just going to use them in my sbz for now. Thanks for the help

 

[jubei]

Well i have used them for a couple of days and am fairly happy. I dont find them as comfortable as the hyperx ones as they arent as snug around the ears, but i am getting much better directional sound from these and they are sounding great running off of my sbz.

 

[Choimaloy75]

Am a massive fan of the GSX so for gaming I would go with that. The only downside I can honestly give the GSX is its asking price! Should be around £120 but in saying that i do feel its in a league of its own when it comes to surround sound accuracy.

@EsaT
That SBX vs GSX I hear a clear difference on CSGO, Listen when the audio goes from rear left to right! On the GSX the audio continues to play naturally, where on the SBZ they is a moment pause.. Also the GSX sounds much better and more natural when Reverb is switched off it also removes the echo effect, While the SBZ Reverb is always on you can only lower the effect.

I have to totally agree with shankleys statement I have had a soundblaster z for a long time and thought it was the best implemtation of surround but its not, I now have also now a GSX 1200 and the surround is way better than the soundblaster z, sounds moves around the headphones so smooth compared to creatives offerings of SBX.
As with shankley I do think the GSX is overpriced this maybe down to the led display and options you can change on the fly.
I am lucky I am in a position where I have a schiit modi 3 and magni 3+ a soundblaster z and a GSX 1200, if i want to listen to music I will use the schiit stack nothing can touch that for the price, but for gaming now is the GSX plugged in to my magni 3 + amp to power my dt990's and it is way better than anything that creative can offer.

 

[cooloutac]

Wow I have to chime in after coming across this thread. Can't believe there is such a stigma against virtual 3d sound or gaming devices. No wonder it doesn't get developed enough and these technologies become abandoned. A thread full of people most of which never even used it.

I have a pair of Hifiman Sundara's with the GSX 1000 and it absolutely blows away my pc audio which is a Rog SupremeFX s1220a with the same OPA1688 op-amp chip found in the schiit heresy. Max power is meaningless to me since my headphone is only 37ohms. I usually stay at 15-40% volume. The 1 Vrms at 32 ohms that an above poster scoffed at is the same found on the JBS Atom, magni+ or heresy or any other budget amp out there. It also has 0-48khz frequency range which is better then the most amps at 20khz. Unless you believe the human ear can't hear that, just like we supposedly can't see past 60hz lol. Or tell the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit. The only valid argument against comparing THD and frequency ranges is there is no standard of measurement. fine.

If I was going to upgrade. I'd want at least 24/192 bit rate support

But I can tell you right now the GSX adds great color to my audio even in 2.0 hd mode (24/96khz) with no enhancements. At 24/48 stereo mode with the music eq preset my Sundara's have amazing punch and slam hard and just sound great. It blew me away the first time. I don't know what sennheiser did there but no matter what I do on my pc I can't come close to replicating its sound. No matter how much bass I got it lacks punch, sounds muffled and the trebles sound a little harsh with my specific cans. The eq on the GSX really is amazing. But I recommend the GSX for neutral or bright cool tilting headphones. Using bassy headphones with these won't sound as good. . I also don't recommend anything over 100-150 ohms because max volume might not be enough. but the 7.1 on it is the best in gaming and the eq is so to my liking I'd still just hook it to another amp.

But TLDR, compared to my more powerful amp on my mobo the GSX is warmer, punchier, wider, cleaner and smoother. Its Gorgeous. And i'd have to be crazy to spend the same amount of money on some budget stack that won't sound any better, most likely worse, and not give me all the features it has. Real Talk!

 

[Rroff]

The 1 Vrms at 32 ohms that an above poster scoffed at is the same found on the JBS Atom, magni+ or heresy or any other budget amp out there.

The headphone driver on the GSX IIRC is 50mW max - I've not looked at it in awhile but I don't believe it has any current buffer on the output, the JDS Atom is 1W @ 32 ohm or 5.66V RMS (totally overkill for most headphones) - it is referenced against 1 VRMS @ 32 ohm for distortion performance.

 

[cooloutac]

The headphone driver on the GSX IIRC is 50mW max - I've not looked at it in awhile but I don't believe it has any current buffer on the output, the JDS Atom is 1W @ 32 ohm or 5.66V RMS (totally overkill for most headphones) - it is referenced against 1 VRMS @ 32 ohm for distortion performance.

I don't believe sennheiser lists the max watts. Only the recommended impedance and Vrms at 32 ohms. IMO, distortion performance is more related to quality, than max power which is more related to volume. Although most "experts" will tell you that there is no standard of measurement so these metrics, like frequency, should be ignored. But Better amps will have better distortion performance, like the schiit magnius with either the balanced output or at low gain sensitivities. The schiit heresy for example, has the same op amp chip my motherboard has. the OPA1688. Sure my motherboard can go much louder, but it doesn't sound as good as the GSX Which ads a nice color to my music. nor can I get the same punchy bass output, or tame treble response as the GSX music eq, without muffling the sound on the PC. I wish I knew exactly what sennheiser's eq settings were, because they are perfect for my taste. But even in 2.0 hd mode at 96khz without the eq, there is something about the sennheiser that just sounds better. Fuller, clearer and less harsh.

But Maybe the experts are right, in which case you still should listen with your ears and not what you read on paper.

I mean most people wouldn't notice the difference, but we are comparing at an audiophile level here. To a lot of "audiophiles" that means trying to find the most accurate reproduction of the music and what the artist intended when recording. So that means they don't want to color their music in any way with an eq or otherwise. So those types of guys stay away from tube amps, and they prefer amps that are simply the most clear. So for those guys the GSX would not be to their liking, but to most gamers looking at VSS for gaming i'm sure that is not the case.

And I would find it ridiculous to spend the same amount of money for a magni modi or atom stack, to get no benefit in sound quality and and lose beneficial features, which would be my case with my Hifiman Sunadara's.

The only time I would not recommend the GSX for a pc gamer is if they have or plan to get headphones over 100-150 ohms, although some people have used such headphones with the GSX and enjoy it, or they have headphones that are not neutral, referenced or bright. Not only do people not realize they have to change bitrate settings in windows, but if your headphones are bassy the GSX is going to make it worse if you use the eq. Most gamers though, know better then to use bassy headhones for gaming. Just like engineers mixing sound.

Its just such a shame though, that 3d audio is so stigmatized and literally taking steps back. We should have had a version 2 of the GSX by now with higher bitrate and USB C for or even a power brick for those who want higher volume and would give up portability. Maybe now that apple is pushing spatial audio it will start a new trend. And because a device is marketed as gaming its slandered. Almost as if its offensive to people. When it comes to the GSX 1000 you have so much disinformation. For example All over the internet there are posts claiming you can't even shut the surround sound off. lol Its disturbing.

 

[Rroff]

I don't believe sennheiser lists the max watts. Only the recommended impedance and Vrms at 32 ohms.

The DAC used has a built in headphone driver max 1 VRMS @ 32 ohm but capable of 50mW - I've not actually looked at the output configuration to see whether there is a voltage or current buffer on the output implemented on the GSX.

On a sort of related note I was just Googling to see if anyone had high-res images of the GSX PCB and had to laugh at this page (some random advertising/scam site scraping internet content for hits or something) https://www.oco-7.top/ProductDetail.aspx?iid=134365731&pr=71.99 strangely enough not only is that image completely unrelated to the GSX... it is also something I built as an experiment...

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/forums/posts/30373456