Scottish University Fees facing Legal Challenge

[Castiel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-14607122

A human rights lawyer is expected to challenge the inherent unfairness in how Scottish University Fees are applied to Scottish and EU students, yet not to English or Welsh students.

Under EU rules, students coming to Scotland from other European countries have to be treated in the same way as Scottish students but those who come from other UK nations do not

I would expect that as all the citizens of the constituent nations within the UK are effectively members of the EU he will argue that the rules should apply to them as they do to French, Irish, German or other EU citizens.

With the Welsh Assembly stating that they will cover the cost of extra fees for Welsh students studying in English Universities it is becoming increasing clear that English Students are being treated differently simply because of their geographical location within the EU, especially with Michael Russell stating that English Students attending Scottish Institutions will be charged the £9000 in fees regardless of what fees the Universities set themselves to 'limit cross border flow'

This is all against a backdrop where the Scottish Universities are highly critical of the Scottish Parliament stating that under their current rules which they claim are politically motivated they face shortfalls in funding of over £200m for the next year alone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/29/english-students-top-tuition-fees-scotland

The loophole in EU legislation that allows Scotland to treat the other citizens of the UK differently is now subject to legal challenge and in my opinion it is about time.

 

[Castiel]

Sounds good to me, especially as a precursor to the rules they'd have to follow if they became independent.

If they became independent and members of the EU. Which is why the loophole exists, currently they are not a member state, the UK is and thus they can charge the other constituent nations citizens whatever they like.

I would assume that the basis of the challenge would revolve around the fact that regardless of the geographical position of the prospective student they are all EU citizens and are subject to EU legislation.

However I am not a lawyer and the nuances of European legislation is somewhat lost on me. Hopefully one of our resident law students can give some insight and we can debate the meat of the issue.

 

[Castiel]

Erm... being able to have a different approach to things like education is the entire point of devolved powers...

It is not about a different approach to education, it is about application of funding depending upon the legislation and ordinary domicile of the student.

Michael Russell is also wishing to close the loophole, but so the Scottish Government do not have to fund any EU student, rather than just the other UK ones.

Indeed, a judgement against this would have knock on effects on a whole host of other things like prescription fees, council tax or any host of other charges and fees that vary with regions within the UK.

Maybe not, as those things are specific to the devolved countries and are not subject to the same EU legislation. For example, if I moved from England to Scotland I would be entitled to Free Prescriptions and so on, yet if I moved from England to Scotland to study I would not be entitled to pay the same fees as my next door neighbour simply because I wouldn't qualify unless I had lived in Scotland for several years prior, yet if I moved from Paris to Scotland I would be entitled to the pay the same fees as my next door neighbour regardless of the time I spent living in Scotland.

 

[Castiel]

Someone English living in Scotland can get free university education as well.

Not unless they meet certain qualifying criteria. The same is not true of other devolved differences such as prescription charges.

 

[Castiel]

Instead of trying to force Scottish universities to open up for free to English students, these lawyers should spend more time trying to fix the problems within the English system. The Scottish Government decided to do this, and pay for it accordingly. England can follow suit if they wish, though obviously money will be diverted elsewhere.
Why should English students get free education? Are they going to be boosting the Scottish economy apart from during their studies or are they going to return back to England during holidays and after graduation?
Thankfully this legal challenge won't go far at all.

The same can be said of other EU citizens.

Seems a little presumptive to state categorically that the legal challenge will not get far, especially as the Scottish Govt themselves are looking at the same loophole, but from a different perspective.

 

[Castiel]

Perhaps some people in this thread should look at this objectively.

1. Scottish Government chose to not introduce Uni fees in Scotland
2. Students that are Scottish are eligible for this
3. EU students are eligible due to EU legislation and NOT by choice of the Scottish Government.
4. Scottish Government made non-Scottish students ineligible to stop a flood of non-Scottish students taking places that Scottish students should be entitled to if they make the grades.

Are non-Scottish, UK students being treated unfairly? Yes, but only because the EU has interfered and basically forced the Scottish Government to make EU but non-UK students eligible.


If you want to criticise someone, criticise the EU. If it wasn't for them then ALL non-Scottish students would be paying.


If a Scottish student wanted to study in another part of the UK, they would be expected to pay which I also think is fair (unlike what is happening with Welsh students studying in England) because that is the choice of the Scottish student not to take advantage of their right to free tuition within their home country.


But hey, I don't expect much more than a general anti-Scottish argument to ensue on here because people would rather that than actually be objective. That is already clear given that people are focusing on it being a problem with the Scottish system even when the story states it is not explicitly happening in Scotland i.e. Wales is mentioned..... It's the same thing that happens when the Barnett Formula rears it's head even though Scotland is not actually the biggest "winner" from that (NI is).

As I said, don't let's be objective or anything....

I'm not being anti-Scottish, but asking the question if non Scottish UK citizens should be treated any differently from their EU counterparts, and whether the loophole in the EU legislation is subject to legal challenge, either in favour of limiting Scottish Fees to Scottish citizens only or including ALL EU residents and not just the non UK ones.

 

[Castiel]

I meant the legal challenge succeeding by allowing students from England to study for free in Scotland.

Why do you think that they should? Don't you think that that would just endanger the Scottish university system by flooding it with English students looking for a free ride?

Address the issues in England rather than looking for the easy way out by forcing Scotland to do something that will harm its own citizens.

I haven't said they should do anything, only that it is about time the inherent unfairness that an non Scottish UK citizen has to pay the fees, yet a non Scottish EU citizen does not.

This actually has little to do with Scotland and more to do with the EU.

 

[Castiel]

Indeed, there's rules to prevent abuse of the system, but the point remains, someone English can get the same education so it immediately fails on the grounds of discrimination based on Nationality as it's rather based on "ordinary domicile".

Which I mentioned earlier, but then if a student moves to Glasgow for example and either rents or buys a permanent residence then where is their ordinary domicile?

And the question I am really asking is can you discriminate based on ordinary domicilewhen that ordinary domicile is in the EU.

 

[Castiel]

I am surprise the scottish govt didnt introduce fees and then introduce a bursary to offset it for those who qualified from a scottish secondary school.
That waybthey could apply the fees tomthe whole of europe, and everyone would get charged, just some would get an educational bursary, thus wouldn't be an issue for the EU at all.

Indeed.

This is also an issue for the Scottish Govt, as I have mentioned, they are looking at options so that they are no longer liable for the £75m it costs to educate EU citizens.

 

[Castiel]

I actually didn't say you were being anti-Scottish. I was simply asking people to have a think for 2 minutes before posting anything because, as is the general outcome with threads like this in GD, it will just end up a "Scotland v English" tirade with blinkered anti-Scot and Anti-English comments being spouted by the usual crowd....

Your point about "should the question be asked" I agree with. I do have a feeling that our views on the result will, however, diverge in that you (I assume albeit I may be wrong) want the system to be opened up to allow everyone studying in Scotland to have free tuition whereas I want it the other way to block EU "migrant students"** from being eligible and to pay for it.

** I use the term migrant students to mean those that come here for a free education only to **** off back home thereby leeching off the country.

I want to see the inherent unfairness removed, and the criteria for eligibility for Scottish Fees (or lack thereof) equally applied to all Non Scottish EU citizens, be they from the UK or not. Whether that means all getting free education or only Scottish or those who have lived for the eligible periods being eligible for free education.

 

[Castiel]

Well what ever the rules say, the point is, someone born in Scotland is subject to exactly the same rules as someone born elsewhere in the UK, so if they move to England when they're a kid they would then be subject to the same fees as someone English who has lived in England all their life. Ergo, not discrimination.

Not discrimination based on nationality, but it is discrimination based on geographical domicile within the EU, which is still discrimination according to EU legislation. The loophole revolves around the definition of member states rather than the status of the individual and this I expect this the basis of the legal challenge.

 

[Castiel]

Interestingly, Swiss people also get 'free' education in Scotland.

Do the Swiss pay for it, or is it under the same EU criteria? (even though Switzerland is not in the EU)

 

[Castiel]

This is why EU students are able to qualify for free education, the legisation deals with interstates, not intrastate. Otherwise, as I said things like council tax, prescriptions, care for the elderly etc would all fall under it as well. It could ultimately kill off devolution in the UK if the Scottish government loses.

I don't think it will, as you would still have to live in Scotland to qualify, it would only effect the criteria for eligibility of those who move to Scotland and not the ability of the Scottish Govt to bring in Scotland specific legislation or public services in regard to Scottish residents.

 

[Castiel]

Same as others from the EU (excluding the guffs of course! . I should add, I'm a guff...) so picked up by the Scottish Government.

Hmmm, then how is that possible if Switzerland is not part of the EU?

 

[Castiel]

Only 2 "fair" ways I can see is:

1. Swiss pay for their student's fees
2. There is a reciprocal agreement if Scottish students went to Switzerland.

Where's cumulus when you need him?

I had not considered the second option.

It must be something like that.

 

[Castiel]

So is a Scottish university education at the moment.

Yet the criteria for eligibility is not.

 

[Castiel]

It isn't free to Scottish, it's only free to most Scottish people based on the same rules that anyone else from the UK would be subject to (ordinarily domiciled in Scotland). The only people pretty much guaranteed to get it free are non-UK EU citizens.

Which means the eligibility is inherently unfair and treats EU citizens differently based on their geographical location within the EU, which is effectively discrimination.

 

[Castiel]

Ok council tax probably isn't a good example, but with free prescriptions, what would then stop someone claiming discrimination that they don't qualify for them because they live in England? Or how about free elderly care, they could just send their relatives upto Scotland to avoid paying any additional charges that they need to pay in England.

It's the same and not descrimination. Council tax and prescriptions is based on your residential address. Not what EU state you came from, irrespective of full time address. Therefore it is applied fairly to everyone.

Prescription isn't just a England/Scottish divide. Different drugs are available in different counties. Meaning people have had to move.

Because they live in England, the same as if someone lived in France.

If that Englishman and Frenchman moved to Scotland they would qualify for Free prescriptions. Yet if the same Englishman and Frenchman moved to Scotland and sent their kids to University only the Frenchman would be eligible, yet both are EU citizens. Therein lies the discrimination.

 

[Castiel]

So the natural consequence is that the EU students are subject to the same rules and hence don't qualify for a free education, I get you.

Quite, the eligibility should be applied equally to all EU citizens regardless of their country of origin. It is the unfairness that I disagree with, not the ability of the Scottish Govt to set fees at whatever they wish for the Scottish people, that is something for the rest of the UK to bring up with their respective governments.

 

[Castiel]

Does that also mean it's unfair that english folk don't get to vote in the Scottish elections? As that's location based too...

Only if other EU citizens were allowed to vote in Scottish elections, which they are not, so that has no bearing on this discussion.