Scrappage Scam Extended

[[TW]Fox]

To the joy of middle class people everywhere, who can continue to trade in third cars for brand new cars (Because lets face it, skint people who run a banger because its all they can afford cannot afford a new car even with scrappage), the scrappage scam has been extended. Your tax money can continue to save people who fancy a brand new Korean car money! Excellent news.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8278679.stm

Also good to hear is that you can now scrap cars made in 2000 under the scheme so if you are sick of that banger of a Ferrari 360 or your V plate Toyota Celica, perhaps that shonky old Honda S2000, you to can force it to be scrapped.


Did anyone see this weeks Autocar? 2 page spread on the cars being scrapped under scrappage. They included:

Mint condition 1997 Mercedes E320 with 80k miles
Mercedes CLK320
Mk4 Golf
20k mile Honda Civic ESi
18k mile Rover 800 on a T plate - the last made.

Numerous other mint perfectly serviceable cars.

Sigh.

Hyundai will be happy.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Our N reg Polo had 105k miles on the clock, needed a new exhaust, was due another cambelt change, was a bit smokey probably due to valve seals, and would sometimes take 15 minutes to start in the morning.

This wreck was worth precisely nothing, or potentially £100 with an MOT.

Scrappage works when people like yourself delude yourselves. An N reg Polo with MOT is worth CONSIDERABLY more than £100!

 

[[TW]Fox]

Another point I'd like to raise: people like [TW]Fox seem to believe that the best solution for everyone is to buy a second hand four year old wreck for £10k.

a) Please do not fall into the trap others do of thinking I think everyone should do what I do. You will find precisely zero occurances on this forum of me recommending people (outside of threads where its specifically asked for) do what I did in terms of car buying.

b) LOL @ your attempt at an insult. A wreck, great. At least its not the sort of thing you normally find yourself being miffed about being offered at the airport hire car desk

Perhaps he doesn't care about UK car factory workers. Fine. But he should still take it into consideration in his one-sided rants.

The UK factory car workers who buillt your Golf?

You got a new Golf, thats great. I'm glad you love it. Why should the taxpayer have helped fund it, though?

To be honest my real bugbear with Scrappage is that the cars traded in MUST be scrapped. Where is the logic in that? Why not a 'tradeage' scheme instead? There is nothing wrong with T plate 1.25 Fiestas - they are economical, reliable and a good source of decent motoring for those on a budget.

Infact frankly if as you think I only care about what I do I wouldn't give a flying **** about scrappage. I hate most of the cars being scrapped and wouldnt drive a Fiesta or a 1996 old shape Merc E Class if you paid me. But guess what - I can see things from others points of view. Some people would be quite glad of the opportunity of purchasing a low mileage Honda Civic. But no, it must be crushed.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Get off your snobbish high horses.

Could you possibly explain how being dissapointed at the forced scrapping of reliable 10 year old car is 'snobbery'?

Surely snobbery would be cheering on the scrapping of these old 'bangers' rather than wishing they'd be able to drive another day?

I have no PERSONAL interest or agenda in scrappage. I do not drive a scrappage qualifying car, I am not in the market to buy the sort of car being 'forced' off the roads by scrappage, etc etc. My opinions on scrappage are formed by taking an objective view at whats happening - as it has absolutely no personal bearing on my life or my taste in cars whatsoever. I don't buy 10 year old cars so I don't care from a personal point of view if they all vanished tommorrow.

Many people, however, DO buy 10 year old cars..

And remember guys - 'scrappage' itself gives only £1000. The rest is from the dealer, and is part of the margin on the car anyway.

Thats right - all you are really getting is a min £1000 part ex for these cars. The extra inflated figures many manufacturers are offering are just part of their usual margin and would otherwise have been available as discounts anyway. An N reg Polo, for example, with MOT (regardless of 'pending' work - most £1k car buyers could not see this coming anyway so you'd still get a tidy sum) is worth £500+ and the rest of the 'discount' you'd have got off the car anyway.

 

[[TW]Fox]

And they still can.

What's your point?

Supply of these cars is being reduced as many perfectly reliable, serviceable and safe examples with many years of life left in them are being forcibily destroyed. The amount of clean, tidy 1-2 owner cars that have been owned by decent families for a long period of time is decreasing as they are being used for 'scrappage'. In the mean time, the crappy smokey banger examples with 17 previous owners none of which has kept it more than 6 months are still out there because they dont qualify..

Scrappage has had a very bad effect on the cheap car market as the better examples of the typical 'banger' are dissapearing (Remember - you need to have had the car for more than a year and most of the better kept examples are those people have owned for a while rather than a short period of time), this reduced level of supply is pushing prices up. I personally couldnt care less but what about those buying a first car?

Why does scrappage have to equal scrapped? Why must these cars be removed from the road? Why can they not be sold on to those less fortunate than us?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Absolute rubbish. Sure, there are a tiny minority of clean, tidy, reliable 1-2 owner cars being scrapped; not because their owners are "forced" to scrap them but because by selling these allegedly priceless little gems, they can't get an equivalent deal.

No there are large amounts of decent cars as well. This is because your typical scrappage customer is not your typical wideboy car abusing moron - many of the cars are not shonky bangers because the sort of person who has the money to take part in the scheme is not the sort of person running a banger on a set of Linglongs anyway, they just happen to have older cars.

I won't shed a tear when a smokey heap of crap is removed from the road.

But seriously, explain the rationale behind legally requiring a fully working, good condition and serviceable Fiesta 1.25 to be cubed, when on Autotrader there are numerous less decent examples for sale for £995 for your kids first car?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Ever noticed the vast array of fridges, freezers, furniture, TVs, audio systems, CRTs, computers, printers, etc. that are due to be "destroyed"?

Completely different. If I wanted to, there is no legal reason why I couldn't re-use a CRT rather than have it destroyed. With scrappage, you cannot legally re-use the car.

 

[[TW]Fox]

So most £1k car buyers wouldn't have noticed a blowing exhaust, rattling tappets, and smoke from the valve stem seals? Maybe £1k means less to you than most people.

Sounds like it was indeed a nail. Odd really, I thought VW's were pretty solid? Yet you rewarded the fact your Polo was falling to bits by.. buying from them again. I hope your Golf proves to have more longevity - N reg is hardly old, is it?

But I got £4.5k off my car? Please, explain to me how I could have gotten £4.5k off by selling the Polo privately then negotiating with a dealer. You think VW are offering £4k discounts on new Golf 6s?

I don't fully understand your deal - under Scrappage, the government contributes £1000. Thats it. The rest is from VW and the retailer. They are not a charity and will not sell you a Golf at a loss from the goodness of their hearts. This means that this remaining £3.5k has come from their margin - its profit they've sacrificed to make the deal, some profit must remain in it.

This means that yes, you MUST be able to get discounts on a Mk6 Golf - its not being sold at virtually cost price when its sold at list, is it? And if they are selling so well there is no need to offer discounts why did they 'Do a Citroen' and offer you shedloads more than scrappage off list?

For some consumers sure - scrappage makes sense. And if it makes sense you are daft not to do it. If I wanted a brand new RX8 I'd be an idiot not to do scrappage if I had a qualifying car for example. But overall, its a deeply flawed scheme. And the biggest flaw is the forced destruction of perfectly roadworthy cars at the taxpayers expense.

 

[[TW]Fox]

If people would rather own a new Hyundai i10 than a Fiesta 1.25 then that is their choice. But why should the Fiesta be destroyed, at the expense of the taxpayer? Why can it not make sensible and economical transport for somebody on a low income? Or a teenagers first car? Why is a perfectly serviceable car destroyed, taking away with it potential work for the automotive aftermarket?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Nobody is FORCED to scrap a ten year old car

Dealers taking in scrappage cars are.

If their existing 10 year old car car is safe, reliable and economical and they expect that happy state of affairs to continue, they really aren't that likely to be that interested in selling it and buying a newer 2nd hand car, hoping that it will be as reliable as their much loved existing transport.

Of course they are. That assumes the only reason for a change of car is if its unsafe or unreliable. People might be bored. My previous car was safe, reliable and economical. I still changed it for one that was less reliable and less economical. Your point makes no sense.

Its what happens after they are traded thats important where IMHO the key failing is.

 

[[TW]Fox]

You're happy to drive round in that, fine. Thousands wouldn't turn up to work or the golf club in something like that if they could help it, and I'm one of them.

Means he gets to run his other car, a 400bhp VX220. Perhaps thats more important than people at the Golf loving your new lease/hire/whatever Golf thing

 

[[TW]Fox]

It is quite amusing how he has gone from driving an N reg Polo to being a new car 'snob' in less than 6 months.

How did he cope at the Golf Club before scrappage?

 

[[TW]Fox]

I know two people personally who have used Scrappage - both had old cars but the biggest thing wrong with any of them was faded bumpers. They didn't take advantage of the scheme because they found their cars unreliable or dangerous - they simply fancied 'treating themselves' to something new and scrappage offered what they felt was a 'good deal'. They are now happy owners of what I consider to be utterly awful new cars - but they are happy, and is great.

Their previous cars, however, are now scrap. They had many years useful life left in them.

I suspect this is far more typical than the picture you paint of people who have enough money for a brand new car yet were, until Scrappage, driving around in things falling to bits. Most of the people who could buy a new car would have replaced such a thing beforehand anyway.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Thanks for that thoroughly worthless post that missed the point. I'm quite happy to accept they liked the deal. I am discussing what happened with the car afterwards and pointing out the flawed argument that everything traded in under scrappage is a nail.

Some people seem to think people wouldnt change their cars unless they were broken. What a flawed assumption.

This, combined with the fact that car dealers are also happy is really all that matters....

£1000 of public money..

 

[[TW]Fox]

I suspect that there is a bit more to the particular car you are describing than that it is really a two owner 1993 BMW 525i in Lazer blue with light silver grey leather, 89,000 miles on the clock with a full service history, superb panels with factory paint and mechanically perfect. How come you happened to stumble across it and glean all this information but apparently not the motivation of the seller in deciding to dispose of this wonderful car? Is it perhaps that despite being "mechanically perfect", it cost a fortune to maintain? Maybe the owner couldn't find anyone prepared to buy it and the person in the dealership failed to spot an opportunity to make a few hundred by doing a private deal? A few people seem to think that there is some evil conspiracy (scam) afoot here; there isn't, it is just market forces at work; most people really aren't that keen to own any 16 year old car, not even a BMW 525i with hundreds of thousands of miles of trouble-free life in it, no matter how "mint" it appears.

You have no idea. That car even as a minter is worth less, trade, than 2k. This is why it was traded in as sccrappage. Not because it was broken. Not because it cost a 'fortune' to run, but because financially it was best for its owner. This bit is fine.

However once it is traded under scrappage it MUST be scrapped, end of. This is where the tragedy is.

Not that I would expect the happy owner of a new i20 to ever understand.

Why continue to insist people would only use scrappage if the car they own was uneconomical to continue to own? It just isnt true, most car changes are because owners get bored, change needs or simply fancy something new not because the existing car was faulty.

 

[[TW]Fox]

My view is that your point is valid and something i had not considered. I still despise the forced destruction of working cars at the taxpayers expense though.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Why do you persist with the myth that only frightful old wrecks are being removed using scrappage? You would have to pay me before I would drive your i20 over say the 96 E320 shown as a scrappage victim in last weeks Autocar.

Just because the owner didnt want it doesnt mean nobody wants it nor is unsafe. Infact does your i20 have ESP?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Yea but its 30% off a car v0n has demonstrated used to be some 30% cheaper before this scheme was dreamt up

As your car is worth 1k anyway you are only gettingan extra grand off, something new car buyers have been doing for years.

 

[[TW]Fox]

No, let's not. If you have and love a Merc, do for God's sake hang on to it; if you don't but would love one, go out and buy one - at any cost. However do try to free yourself from the illusion that everyone is a fan of some over-priced metal box on wheels with an engine - which is after all, what any car, even a BMW or a Mercedes is. Any car is just a means of transport, not some great work of creative genius, thousands of which will end up hung on gallery walls in a hundred year's time.

You may think that but the existence of premium brands, multi million pound aftermarket indusry and forums such as this would demonstrate how simplisticly short sighted you are. Just because to you a car is like a washing machine does not make it fact.

 

[[TW]Fox]

No, let's not. If you have and love a Merc, do for God's sake hang on to it; if you don't but would love one, go out and buy one - at any cost. However do try to free yourself from the illusion that everyone is a fan of some over-priced metal box on wheels with an engine - which is after all, what any car, even a BMW or a Mercedes is. Any car is just a means of transport, not some great work of creative genius, thousands of which will end up hung on gallery walls in a hundred year's time.

You may think that but the existence of premium brands, multi million pound aftermarket indusry and forums such as this would demonstrate how simplisticly short sighted you are. Just because to you a car is like a washing machine does not make it fact.