Screen Burn

Oops Dead Again said:
I ran mine at a lower contrast and brightness etc for the first 200 hours and never had a problem they are cracking screen. Which pio screen are you looking at getting?
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I am thinking of getting the PDP-436XDE or waiting for the new model in June with the new higher res screen , as the rest of my home cinema is also Pioneer :)

what are the refresh rates on the pioneer like ie watching fast moving objects do you get bluring ?
 
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Flibster said:
Spoke to my friendly local TV repair man. :D

Plasma's suffer with screenburn massively. Longer than a couple of hours of a stationary image or part image could leave a mark - including watching 4:3 tv on a 16:9 screen with the black borders down each side.

Once again - I see no good reason to buy a plasma screen.

Simon/~Flibster
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willd58 said:
I completely agree with this.
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Well my m8 put 18 hours of a static image on his plasma and no burn/retention.

Its actually image retention that plasmas suffer more from, burn is something you get on shop/airport screens permantly on static images.

My plasma is on an average of 11 hours aday, i game on it watch sports on it and the kids watch kiddy tv on it. Never once had retention, even with all the static dogs etc its never happened.

Pioneer suffer retention more than Panasonic do at the moment.

Why would you not have a plasma ? I assume all you guys would not have an LCD either as they are still behind plasma for quality of image. In an ideal world i would have a CRT projector, not feasable but the next best thing is Plasama, i could never live with an LCD. Roll on SED and if its as good as they say i shall wave goodbye to my plasma.
 
Duradrum said:
Because they offer a far superior image to LCD's?

Seriously. No LCD comes close to a good plasma. No question.
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This sir is a rubbish statement...
The majority of Plasma arnt as good as HTPC screens though quality in blacks can be better in plasma however the latest sub 8ms LCDs offer colours/contrast and a picture quality that matches plasma. I had a very hard decision choosing between the 40" Bravia V and Pioneer 43" last year but overall for my uses (HTPC) the Sony was best overall.

New models will probably close the gaps both technologies suffer from particulary with 1080p plasma screens arriving this summer yet LCD continuing to improve in colours motion and also being 1080p available.

I mentioned in these forums several months back that my brother stopped using his 50" Panasonic Plasma with his PC as he was getting screen burn beginning to appear. He used his PC a lot on the screen for all purposes including Hi Def playback.

Ok the twit was playing a football management game a lot but be warned screenburn still can happen with plasma. I also know of a local shop that had a problem with a Samsung model that showed the "Finding Nemo" fishtank screensaver constantly in its window.
 
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Mr Latte said:
This sir is a rubbish statement...
The majority of Plasma arnt as good as HTPC screens though quality in blacks can be better in plasma however the latest sub 8ms LCDs offer colours/contrast and a picture quality that matches plasma. I had a very hard decision choosing between the 40" Bravia V and Pioneer 43" last year but overall for my uses (HTPC) the Sony was best overall.

New models will probably close the gaps both technologies suffer from particulary with 1080p plasma screens arriving this summer yet LCD continuing to improve in colours motion and also being 1080p available.

I mentioned in these forums several months back that my brother stopped using his 50" Panasonic Plasma with his PC as he was getting screen burn beginning to appear. He used his PC a lot on the screen for all purposes including Hi Def playback.

Ok the twit was playing a football management game a lot but be warned screenburn still can happen with plasma. I also know of a local shop that had a problem with a Samsung model that showed the "Finding Nemo" fishtank screensaver constantly in its window.
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But for image and picture quality especially for movies a plasma wins. Always. No LCD will come close to the clarity, black level and natural picture a plasma offers. Sure, LCD may be better as a HTPC screen due to image retention problems that some LCD's suffer, but for raw performance and quality I stand by my statement that plasma always wins.

The V series Bravias are very good and you are correct, LCD's are closing the gap. No doubt the introduction of OLED and SLED the tables will turn, but for now plasma still rules the roost for performance (your quote of mine was me replying to a post saying 'I cannot see any reason for buying a plasma').
 
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A good friend bought this screen a few weeks after it came out and he definitely does suffer screen burn with it :( He cannot play his 360 on it and is a gutted man. He is very knowledgeable about his AV stuff and really read up on how to best run in and look after the screen (even though I believe Pioneer do not have an official procedure in the manual).

He ran it in for the 200 hours on low settings and the next 200 hours on slightly higher settings, and yet it still retains images now, even after probably 1500+ hours. Apparently even after watching any channel with a logo, like Sky news, for an hour he can see the logo for the next 10 minutes after changing channels.

Pioneer has sent out an engineer twice to play with the voltages and yet it is still not right. He has posted many times on the AV forums threads and it just seems like some people have the screen and have no problems what so ever and yet others do. I am not sure if he has an early version that has now perhaps been corrected?

If I was him I would have demanded a new screen ages ago, but he just isn't like that and has resigned to playing his 360 on his Dell 24" monitor upstairs and just uses the Pioneer for movies and tv.

It has certainly put me off buying Plasma and I will be going LCD when I go HD. It is a real shame as the screen and picture does look just amazing!!
 
OLED SLED :rolleyes: ......

How long do you seriously think it will be before those technologies get perfected and are affordable? Besides Plasma and LCD are getting better each year.

LCD will continue to improve faster and become cheaper simply because more companies are backing it and manufacturing is less costly.

As for picture quality im not going to get into an argument or say one or the other is ALWAYS better, thats a fanboy comment right there. Like anything it always comes down to the overall quality of simular competing products and peoples own preferrence or requirements for the product.
 
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Mr Latte - i will give you LCD for pc use, much better than plasma as higher res and no screen burn. However im sure most people buy a big screen for tv, films etc. Plasma is still much better than LCD.

8ms just isnt enough, i can still see smearing esp on SD feeds. Plasmas are less than 4ms so as you can see much better. Sony 8ms is 12 in the real world and while i think the Sony is one of the best LCD screens ive seen i could not live with one.

Im also not a fan of the Pioneer plasma, imo it its too clinical and over sharpens eveything. Also it is still dissapointing in black levels, the way they ship them the blacks look great but it crushes detail. Get the detail back and the blacks are poor. However they do really punchy colour so i can see why people like them, i prefer a natural crt like image and Panasonic are famous for this. However even with Panasonic plasmas you really need a pannel and not the tv version. The tv's are good but the pannels are vastly better.

There is no real debate on Plasma vs Lcd, every tester/review/isf installer always puts Plasma on top, sure LCD's have improved but they will never beat Plasma, OLED and SED almost certinally will and then we can move onto them.
 
Ohh and before im flammed.

Mr Latte has a good point about uses of the screen being a deciding factor.

What most people dont realise is that plasma + lcd are a compromised choice. HD-CRT would blow both away (good ones not the cheap tat we are about to get) so when you buy you are making a decision based on priorities.

For instance my screen will never get used for a pc monitor. If this was a major use i would be buying a LCD over a plasma. That would be my compromise, i dont like LCD images but its personal - they are not terrible and if pc usage was key then i would have one.

In the same way i could never go back to a CRT screen, the size of them being to big + they are too heavy to move and place etc.

So it comes down to what you want to use it for, how much you want to spend and what YOU like.

Now flame away ;)
 
HTPC is becoming a new huge market and will continue to grow when the HDCP and Vista finally get sorted. Also look at how the new consoles are adapting to use or combine PCs to the living room and even portable players. isnt the TV now a main hub for various uses not just for typical channel hopping?

Plasma Vs LCD will always be a debate but you simply just cant say one is better than the other as the difference in various models can be huge. Its not a yes / no debate.

1080p screens, although not going to be cheap will finally bring the resolution drawbacks that Plasma has had in the past as a non issue. However resolution is not the "be all" in performance as some may think, youll possibly still get differing 1366 panels out performing 1920 panels just as many people walking into a electrical store today couldnt point out a 1024 panel amongst 1366 or 1280 panels.

Screen burn is still the biggest fear with Plasma but again different models may have less of a problem with it than others.

* Regards ghosting on LCD i cant speak for all models put can confirm on the Sony V40 its very depedent on :
A) The settings you have applied
B) Allowing the screen at least 20-30 mins to warm (V40)
 
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I found LCD itself was great - X360 looked stunning on it, but the problem was trying to use it for all round TV/DVD etc. SD material through SKY was awful, so much so even my wife noticed! I just couldnt live with the smearing and ghosting watching stuff through RGB.

Now I have a plasma and I'm much happier. I havent had any retention or burn issues, and that includes playing PGR3 in bumper view for 5 hour stints. Its much more forgiving on normal TV and still looks fantatstic when fed a HD source, either games via the 360 or HD movies via Windows MCE and upscaled divx via XMBC over component.

I'm not slagging off LCD at all, apart from weak blacks, when fed a high quality source the picture looks great. Sadly at the moment the sources we actually get are generally poor (maybe sky HD and component connections will change this) which IMO makes plasma a better all rounder at this moment in time. With high guaranteed high quality sources there would be very little in it.
 
Found this which was a good read on screenburn , bit of a mouth full :)

So, how do you prevent burn-in on your brand-new plasma TV screen?

(1) Some obvious advice: Do not leave static images on your plasma TV screen for more than an hour. Turn off your unit when you are not watching it. Do not pause DVDs for more than 20 minutes at a time.

(2) Know that plasma screens are more prone to burn-in during their first 200 hours of use. When phosphors are fresh, they burn more intensely as they are ignited. This means that relatively new plasma display TVs are prone to "ghosting", which occurs when on-screen images appear to stay on the screen belatedly. This is a function of the high intensity with which new phosphors "pop," and this phenomenon usually "washes out" on its own, as the screen displays subsequent images. Displaying a bright, or moving snow image (as with a DVD or VCR with no input) will "wash" a ghost image from the screen in most cases. Many plasma manufacturers have installed anti-burn settings, which are monotone gray or snow screen settings which recalibrate pixel intensity levels uniformly - thus eliminating any image retention (ghosting). It is a good idea to run this type of program after the first 100 hours or so.

(3) Adjust the CONTRAST setting at or below 50% on your new plasma TV. These days most plasma TVs are preset to either peak or very high contrast (also called picture setting on many TVs). This forces phosphors to glow more intensely, which decreases the length of time necessary for burn-in to occur. Our advice is to reduce the contrast setting to 50% or less for the first 200 hours of use. And, be sure to avail yourself of your plasma's anti-burn-in features.

(4) Some plasma televisions burn-in more easily than others. In my experience, AliS type panels -- the ones utilized by Hitachi and Fujistu -- seem more readily given over to problems with burn-in. As well, be more wary of the 2nd and 3rd tier brands as their technology is usually not as up to date as some of the better 1st tier brands.

(5) When displaying video games and other content which have static images, use your burn-in protection features like power management settings, full-time picture shift (both vertical and horizontal), and automatic screen-saver functions. Check your Owner's Manual for further information.

(6) Realize that quality matters with burn-in as with everything else. Purchase a plasma display that has really good scaling, so that you can watch 4:3 TV programs in widescreen comfortably. It is better not to display black bars on your TV screen for prolonged periods of time (especially in the first 200 hours), so you are probably better off watching most everything in "full screen" mode. This should not be much of a problem todays selection of widescreen HDTV and DVDT content.

Also, higher quality TVs tend to be more resistant to burn-in -- though not entirely immune to it. Of the plasma displays I've owned and/or tested extensively, NEC, Sony, Pioneer, and Panasonic seemed least prone to burn-in once the plasma screen was properly broken in.

Note: There are some applications which are simply not well suited to plasma display technology. The static flight schedule signage at airports, for example. It amazes me to walk into an airport and see a ruined plasma display monitor hanging from the ceiling with what is obviously an extreme case of permanent burn- in. As LCD monitors have increased in size, they are being used to replace plasma displays in this types of setting.

The Bottom Line on Burn-In
Plasma TV burn-in is not an issue that should cause undue concern in the average user. With a modicum of caution, most plasma TVs will probably never have a problem with image retention. A viewer may experience temporary ghosting, but this is not cause for alarm.

For more about the life span of a plasma TV, please see the article "How Long Do Plasma TVs Last?"
 
The second question that I get from friends or family when discussing plasma TVs is, "Plasmas don’t last as long right, they burn out faster (than other television technologies)? The short answer to this question among top tier brands is, "No, plasma is the equivalent of LCD in longevity as a technology, though there is variation among brands and models".

FYI: The first question is, invariably, "Which is better, LCD or Plasma (TV technology). See our article: Plasma TV vs. LCD.

Plasma TV life span expectancy has long been a hot topic and rightly so. Most early plasma monitor models from 1999 and early 2000 have already been delivered to the electronics graveyard. Manufacturers were doing well to deliver a plasma product that fired up. An early adaptor could purchase a plasma TV that was 6" in depth, was hot enough to fry an egg on, and had fans that sounded like it was going to take off and fly through the roof - all for a modest $10,000.

However, improvements in the longevity of plasma TVs and displays have been rapidly effective. The green phosphors are claimed by some manufacturers as the reason behind the incredible increase. Lower power usage and motion adaptive anti burn-in technology are also contributors.

In fact, many plasma manufacturers boast a life span of 60,000 hours to half life! This is a longer life than a tube based television. The specification is somewhat suspect since the process of determining longevity of the product is based on deductive mathematical calculation of phosphor dissipation, and does not take into account the electronic components and the myriad of problems that can occur. Panasonic was the first to claim the 60,000 hour life span, up from a previous 30,000 just a year prior.

Within months after Panasonic announced this new life span, other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon announcing that their plasma television is now rated to 60,000.

So how long will a plasma last? The long and short of it is that it depends upon your daily hourly usage as well as how you use the monitor. 12 to 55 years is my new short answer.

One practical example I will cite here is the Panasonic Tau units being used by video rental company, In Motion Pictures at major airports around the country. Most of the earlier Tau models have now been replaced by a newer model, but these plasma displays were used for 5 years and were the first generation of plasma displays to go a considerable distance. In Motion displays images on them from 6AM until 10PM daily (16 hours). By my estimates, these early plasma displays by Panasonic were in use by In Motion for around 30,000 hours or more. They never fail to catch my eye as I pass by in one airport or another to see if they are still in use. If they have lost some of their brightness level its hard to tell. This use equates to 18 years for a home owner that watches 3 hours television per day.

And this is the old model!

Manufacturer figures for longevity are closely guarded but I have added some here for your review:

Panasonic: States in new specifications that new plasma TVs and monitors are good to 60,000 to half life.

Sony: Now out of the plasma market. Does not list a figure for LCD lineup.

Samsung: Lists 60,000 hours for plasma lineup.

Pioneer: States 60,000 hours of use in their new 2005 models.

Sharp LCD panels: States 60,000 hour life.

For consumer use these numbers should be comforting. Plasma Displays are now about equivalent in longevity to LCDs, which typically state 60,000 hours. Consider that these figures are a great amount more than old CRTs, which regularly post life span to half brightness at 25,000 hours. Let's put these hours in perspective. The average U.S. household watches 4 to 6 hours of television per day. Staggering. Taking a mean time manufacturer stated longevity of 50,000 hours of usage, times our average 5 hours per day, calculates to over 27 years of usage.

Now, there are varying degrees of phosphor ignition along the way (the same way a CRT fades). Dissipation begins the moment you turn the set on. After 1000 hours of usage a plasma monitor should measure around 96% of its original brightness, which is barely noticeable to the naked eye. At 15,000 to 20,000 hours the monitor should measure around 80% brightness, or to state is technically, 80% of the original phosphors (gases) are being ignited.

There are steps you can take to ensure longer and better life from your plasma display panel:

1) Never leave static images on the unit. Plasma phosphors have become more resilient to burn in, but still its better to be safe. Do not leave a static image on the plasma screen for more than 7-10 minutes. This can cause a ghosting effect which will "wash" out by use. Watch the unit in full widescreen format as much as possible to avoid differentiation between the side bars of the unit. While this does not actually decrease the longevity of the phosphors it does cause an annoyance to have to play a gray static image to "erase" the temporary burn in.

2) Use Brightness and Contrast levels that are necessary for viewing - not excessive. In a brightly lit room you may need to view the plasma TV at a higher contrast and brightness, which will decrease the life of the unit. However, there are memory setting adjustments available on most recent plasma displays that allow the user to choose a memory setting to suit viewing needs. At night, or in a lower light room use lower contrast levels and extend the life. Do not use your plasma display on 100% contrast (often disguised as the picture option in the menu). In rooms with normal lighting you should not need to use the contrast setting on more than 60% of contrast.

NOTE: Plasma manufacturers routinely ship plasma TVs with the contrast (picture) setting tweaked to 80 to 100% of contrast. Therefore, you will need to make this necessary adjustment yourself.

3) Keep the monitor/TV in a well-ventilated area. The cooling system in the plasma will not have to work as hard.

4) Buy a good brand. First tier brands are typically better built and engineered and will last longer. My first question when someone tells me about a plasma that pooped out on them is, “What brand and model was it?” Most of the time, it’s an “off” brand.

5) Turn the plasma off when not in use.

6) Keep the unit out of reach of small children.

7) Do not mount the unit face down from the ceiling. (Philips are you listening?)

So how do the manufacturers know how to calculate the figures? The manufacturing facilities in Japan/Korea test plasma panels at 100% white image light and measure down from that point with meter readings. A series of mathematical deductions takes place. It takes months to find that 50% mark - between 40,000 and 60,000 hours. What a job that would be… to watch the white light…
 
When you say HTPC then i think of films etc, again i would still take a plasma over a lcd. I was meaning PC use so using the screen as a monitor - in this use lcd is a no brainer imo. I think there is very little market for this use.

Something i should point out. I think the best plasmas are better than the best lcd's. There are some truly terrible plasmas and lcd's and i wouldnt bother comparing these.
 
If you only have minor screen burn you can usually get rid of it using some fast-paced colourful images (good fight sequence would do)
 
One good reason to buy LCD over Plasma:

HD for under a grand without having to have a huge screen.

Lots of people don't have the room for a 42" beast and even more people cannot justify dropping a grand on a TV. LCD is a gread middle-range technology which can provide decent HD screens at a reasonable price.

Show me a 26-32" HD-Ready plasma screen below a grand.
 
I didn't think there were any plasmas smaller than 37 inches?

Anyway, I'm sure there were some end-of-line Panasonic PW7's for sale in Richer Sounds for not far off a grand when the PW8 series came out. Sure they're not HD resolution, but they're reputed to display HD images better than some similarly-priced HD-resolution plasmas.

Agree with you tho' Jimmy, it does seem like LCD is more 'for the masses'-type technology, whereas more 'enthusiasts' seem to buy plasma at the moment.
 
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