Section 75 Claims - New Cars

[kaktus]

Gents,

I have been having a bit of a nightmare with Citroen for the past 18 months and feel like I have no choice left but to go down a Section 75 route. Have any of you gone down this route before with respect to car purchases? How likely is it I will be able to obtain a full refund for the purchase price of the car?

Back story:
-Bought a new C4 Cactus in June 2017
-had some issues, paintwork, wrong handles, suspension
-bought it through carwow from a dealer in Bolton, been having it worked on in Citroen North London
-18 months on, suspension issue remains (rusty squeak every time the car goes over any uneven surface, horrible grinding noise on motorway). It makes driving intolerable in the car
-Official final response from Citroen North London this evening was and I quote "we've tried everything we can. We are of the opinion this is a design characteristic of the vehicle. If you want to reject the car you have to take this up with the Selling dealership".

Apart from the obvious, which is, it can't be a design characteristic for the car to sound like a rusty spike every time it goes over any bump or sound like someone is grinding a stone when traveling at high speed. If it was, why would you have admitted it for warranty work more than 20 times in 1 year? The response is ludicrous.

Equally ludicrous, the dealership in Bolt now want to have their chance to look at the car. Their initial response was, we don't remember selling you the car (yes, really), then "well why don't Citroen N.London refund it for you", then "well you need to send it back to Bolton so we can try to fix the problem". As if 25+ attempts by Citroen in North London wasn't enough...

Basically I've had enough and spoke with a Lawyer who said to me since I paid for the initial deposit on Credit Card just raise a Section 75 dispute and be done with it. Is it really this simple? Will I get a refund for an issue like this which doesn't stop the car from being able to be driven but makes you detest driving it in the first place? I mean, it's a brand new car for flips sake, shouldn't have to put up with this


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edit: click this link to see what I mean about the squeak. It sounds like this every time the car goes over any uneven surface or bump, and as loud inside the car as it is outside the car

https://uploadfiles.io/lnjxa

 

[kaktus]

not this tsb Creaking / Squeaky rear suspension. Damper Mountings? but I guess you have dredged sites

I am not entirely sure, but I know they claimed to have replaced the axle, the damper mountings, the bushes, the suspension coils, basically everything over the last 18 months. The last time I went in there, the master tech claimed the issue was to do with the handbrake, he did something to it and the noise was gone temporarily. 30 minutes of driving later and the noise was back again. Gets progressively worse.

Honestly at this point I'm just done with the car and with Citroen. Entirely sick of this company. The OP was a really shortened version - you would not believe some of the things they have done during this period of time including being caught red handed in lies, car sitting for 5-6 weeks no one working on it etc

 

[kaktus]

Bit unfair to tell the Bolton branch to provide a refund without even giving them a chance to look at the vehicle.

I don't get why you spent 25+ attempts with someone who was just racking up the warranty income for attempting 25+ repairs, rather than going to the seller. Remember they didn't sell you the car and obviously wouldn't provide any refund.

Section 75 claims also aren't magic and they could ask you to send the car to the Bolton branch anyway.

I was following exactly what Citroen instructed me to do which was to take the vehicle to my nearest official Citroen dealership and have them rectify the car under warranty...not sure why that would need to involve the selling dealership at any point in the chain. By the way, this was offered at the first sign of the issue and they rejected because of the cost they would have incurred in having the vehicle picked up and sent back to Bolton. They instead at the time (when the car was delivered) confirmed they would rather let me nearest dealership deal with the problem as it was under warranty anyway. The work and the authorisation for the work comes from the Manufacturer, not the dealership. I do not see at all how this is "unfair" to the Bolton branch?

 

[kaktus]

Does the Bolton garage already/electronically have access to details of these warranty visits, to evaluate the issue ?
Clock/fix-attempts may only start when you called&visit the Bolton garage , did lawyer already comment.

Guess you demanded a loaner during visits, but, nonetheless, I have seen folks calculate time/petrol they have spent with visits.

They do. But they want to try to fix it themselves - which basically means I have to pay £300 to get the car shipped up there. £300 to get it shipped back and 100% guarantee when it comes back nothing will have been fixed. Utterly unacceptable when they have access to the dozens of service reports that show the car has been brought in to an authorized dealer for the same job (At Bolton Dealer's request initially), all the work that has been done on it and the problem still persists, along with written final response from the authorised dealer saying we are of the opinion that it is a design defect. I don't see any reason for Bolton branch to have a go unless they want to do it at their expense, which they won't.

I'd estimate the car has been in the workshop for a combined total of about 4 months off the road.

From watching that video, I'm astounded they haven't been able to get to the bottom of this. An entirely replicable problem, on the suspension, shouldn't be this hard to figure out!

I'm no mechanic, but if I was, the first thing I'd suggest is getting the apprentice under there to pinpoint the source of the noise whilst someone bounces on the car?

Imagine having to show up at their service centre and go for a drive with their technician (the same two every time) and demonstrate the problem every single time. We've been under, over, on the side of the car on all angles to pinpoint the noise. The master tech there (who I now have on my whatsapp since we have been in so much communication) said straight up 'I have absolutely no idea what causes this issue but I know it is a common issue on citroen's and peugeots but you can't quote me on this"

 

[kaktus]

The fact you have left it so long is your issue.

Except I contacted Ctiroen UK Managing Director, Citroen UK Customer Care, Bolton Dealership, N.London Dealership and I have followed exactly the instructions given to me, and the rules as laid to me, in the T&C's and the Warranty Guide as required to do so. I have not been sitting idly twiddling my thumbs. I was also advised by the attorney that I should be allowing Citroen to perform exhaustive efforts to rectify the vehicle, which I now have. I do not see at all how I can be even remotely responsible for this situation

 

[kaktus]

Open the S75 claim right away, their investigation will take weeks.

Ultimately the vehicle is not of satisfactory quality and arguably unfit for purpose, I wouldnt be entertaining a repair at all at this point and straight up demanding a refund in full.

I will be doing that this weekend. I am basically going to write up a cover note to give the chain of events that began with the selling dealership requesting that I take the vehicle to my nearest official citroen dealer to have the issues rectified under warranty. This has been going on for 18 months. Citroen N London claims issues are a design characterisic/flaw/manufacturing defect. Now Bolton want to start the process all over again which is unacceptable and I am not prepared to go through this any longer. I'll attach the 50+ emails and the service reports.

 

[kaktus]

But you still have the car 18 months after you bought it, you seem to have taken advice from many sources and you are now on a web forum asking for more advice. With respect you have taken far too long, you have been using the car for the 18 months and I am sure added many miles. I am not seeking to argue with you, I am saying had I been in your situation the car would have been back with Citroen well over a year ago. It seems to me you have gone about this terribly and I am trying to tell you no matter what you have been told, you are likely to struggle. I hope you get the result you want, but really stop messing about. Get it back to the supplying dealer and speak with the DP about resolution as all of this advice has not fixed your problem. You have put up with it far too long, you have not pushed hard enough and have been strung along. Accept that, stop with the emails and get it sorted.

Best advice I can offer.

I have not taken advice from many sources. I have had no choice but to contact all the departments of Citroen that I possibly could in an effort to resolve this issue as per the guidelines of the terms of service provided by the manufacturer and its authorised dealers. Contacting an attorney is the only source of advice I have sought outside of dealing with the company directly and this was recently. And the reason for this post was to ask if anyone has gone down the S75 route. You may think this is 'going about this terribly' I beg to differ. You may be operating on information unknown to me but when I have a problem with a product I purchase I talk to the company I purchased it from and follow their procedures. I don't make up procedures as I go along to suit me. But thanks for your advice.

 

[kaktus]

Well yeah, the 18 months is ostensibly their fault not his... as he was following their instructions etc.. Yup there are of course the arguments that he should have taken a different approach much sooner (that certainly is a lot of patience to string this out for 18 months, I'd have lost my **** over something like this much sooner), but from the perspective of the dealership themselves, if they fobbed him off initially and were happy for him to keep pursuing things under warranty with a local dealership then they can't really complain too much.

This is exactly why I have zero desire to let the Bolton dealer have a go now. They didn't want anything to do with this issue or all the other issues to begin with and now that it has dragged on this long and it has reached the point where the car is being rejected according to one poster here it is totally reasonable for them to do so. I think that is absurd.

I have been dealing with the Dealer Principal in the N London branch who couldn't give a toss and his head of service department is the one that has stated in writing they are of the opinion it is a design characteristic and no more can be done. Wtf are the Bolton dealership going to find that the N London branch haven't done in 18 months when there is service records to prove they've swapped out the entire suspension system even

I've written up the s75 letter over the weekend and compiled all the emails in chronoligical order and now just waiting for the service reports to send off the package.

First and last citroen ever. Really total pos company

 

[kaktus]

Thank you everyone for your contributions and help, especially @Housey.

Just an update - I have been in touch with the Dealer Principal of the Selling Dealership. He is considering to replace my car with a different used car. I get that my vehicle is technically used now but I specified it, selected it, bought it and took care of it. Why should I have to settle for someone else's used car and be the second owner after all of this? Surely if it is a replacement, should it not be replaced for a new vehicle or am i being unreasonable?

I said at the end of my mail that I would happily consider a replacement vehicle so firstly I will look to see if a newer and less mileage car of the same model is available.

Talk on Monday, have a good weekend and I am really sorry for the undoubtedly stressful experience

Mike

Mike,


Happy to do this by email if you prefer that route - I was trying to avoid bombarding you with lengthy emails describing the events of the timeline in detail. Usually a few minutes by phone can help to clear up these kind of situations. I will try to make this as simple as possible to follow:


Your aftersales manager was on the receiving end of a frustrated customer who had attempted to reach the Dealer Principal multiple times. Infact, I was under the impression that you were going to call me last Monday and obviously this didn't happen and it is clear from your email below you had no knowledge of this request which means once again, the message failed to reach you through your staff. Prior to this, your staff at Bolton and Blackburn branches have conveyed to me the following at various points in time: 1) there is no Dealer Principal of ****. 2) Dealer Principal does not get involved in issues like this 3) Don't know who Dealer Principal is 4) Salesman who sold the car left the company (as if this is relevant in any way) 5) I should "flog the car to Evans Halshaw". These are some of the responses I have had while attempting to communicate with your staff about this issue. I am sorry if your After Sales Manager felt I was speaking in an excitable manner by the point I had contacted him however as I explained to him by phone, I had gone through all of the above and just wanted to reach the Dealer Principal.


The Timeline

Car was delivered to my home 6th June 2017. That day was torrential rainfall in London and by the time the car was delivered it was too dark to inspect. The following morning the car was inspected and driven. Please refer to the attached email for the communication between myself and Martyn. Martyn advised me by writing that the car "needed to be looked at by a local dealer" on 7th June 2017 at 4:51pm. I called Martyn to query this and was told there was no need to send the car back to **** as these are items that can be rectified under Citroen Warranty. Phil's comment about the £360 is confusing the delivery cost of returning the vehicle back to Bolton and the cost of paint repairs for the issues Martyn missed during PDI which he told me were estimated at £2,000 at the time by Citroen Chiswick. Martyn had pleaded with me to allow him to resolve just the door handle (completely different colour to the rest of the body), the tailgate paint defects and the headlight area paint defects at a cost of some £500. He said if he had to cover the remainder it would surely "come out of his pocket". I had a good relationship with Martyn and did not want him to incur any issues with his employer and so I agreed but insisted that the mechanical issues needed to be rectified or the car would be returned. His response was clear: the mechanical work is warrantable and can be rectified by any Citroen - I had no reason to doubt this. Martyn was privy to and responded to at least 6 emails between 4th September and 6th September 2017 with Citroen Edgware discussing the scope of work involved and who would cover the bill so **** was aware of these issues from the beginning and had signed off on at least some portion of payment towards rectifying them. I am sorry if this information did not find its way back to you but it is clear evidence that I was in communication with and received instructions from **** as a business with which direction to take to rectify the problems.


Following the completion of the paint defect work Martyn was again contacted in September 2017 and October 2017 by phone to request assistance with the ongoing mechanical issues. His response was that as these were warrantable issues it was not needed for **** to be involved. I queried this with Citroen Customer Care as well following my conversations with Martyn and again was advised in writing that since this was a warrantable issue the car would "not go back and forth between **** and London and would be dealt with by Citroen Edgware". Please see attached email communication from Citroen Customer Care dated 6th September 2017.


It is at this point that communication with **** ceased on the mechanical issues as I was instructed now by both Martyn and Citroen Customer Care to do so. At no point until Mr Piotr Daniel's email on 4th January 2019 was I informed that **** is ultimately responsible for the return and refund of the vehicle otherwise I would have of course been back in touch with your group much sooner. Infact you can see from my email to Richard Jennings, Robert McKenzie and Karl Howkins in November 2018 that I had mistakenly expected a refund from Citroen Edgware following this absurd situation and Richard Jennings followed up with a reference to Citroen insisting on diagnosing the issue before a refund would be contemplated. Again, no mention whatsoever of ****. I was advised by, and under the mistaken impression, that Citroen Edgware were the responsible party for the issue and if the issue could not be dealt with then by some means Citroen would step in and issue a replacement vehicle or refund.


In the ensuing 18 months the car had been in and out of the workshop more than 20 times at Citroen Edgware to try to resolve the suspension issues and other issues including faulty air conditioning, dead speakers, gear shuddering, condensation in the touchscreen etc. The problem with the suspension became so much of an issue to identify that Citroen Edgware's three master technicians were driving the vehicle back and forth between the workshop and their home for weeks to try to figure it out I'm told. All in all, the car has spent a combined approximately 5-6 months in the workshop out of my possession.


Following Piotr Daniel's email on the 4th of January copying in Karl Howkins, Citroen Customer Care and Citroen Edgware's dealer principal advising that Citroen Edgware confirms it has done all it can to try to resolve the issue and that a refund would need to be processed with the Selling Dealership, is the point at which I was then forced to get back in touch with **** to resolve this


I hope that this summarises the timeline of events for you. I noted at the end of your email you mentioned that you are now preparing an automatic loan vehicle while my vehicle is brought into your workshop for more repair work. I am afraid that this is not an acceptable solution for me Mike. I have absolutely no reason to believe that another repair attempt will rectify anything particularly when I have had official communication from Citroen Edgware that this problem is a 'design issue'. I believe if the problem were going to be resolved it would have been by now with the sheer amount of repair attempts and parts replaced including a full rebuild of the suspension system. I am sure your technicians are competent but I have no reason to believe they are any more competent than three master technicians employed by Citroen Edgware. I have every reason to believe that this attempt will fail as the dozens of prior attempts have and will do nothing other than to drag out an already ridiculously long, ardous process.


At this point the only two solutions I can accept are a replacement vehicle or a refund of the price I have paid for a car I have had little opportunity to use. Ultimately, I understand your position but you should also try to understand mine. I did not start by demanding a refund for the vehicle. I have patiently waited, followed the procedure as laid out to me by a representative of your business and by Citroen and gave far more than a reasonable opportunity to have my car fixed. I cannot allow this to continue any longer than it already has and I am quite certain if our positions were reversed you would not either.

The first time I heard of you was when my Isle of Man used car operation’s sales manager advised you had been in an excitable manner on the phone advising him that someone at Blackburn, from where you bought the car, had replied to your request to speak to Martin Williams was “I’ve never heard of him” which could have been better explained as “ he must have left before I joined sorry but he is no longer here. Can I help you?”

Phil has now told me that you when you advised Martin that you were having a problem he said “ it will cost £300 to recover your car and I might lose my job”. Is that correct?

I will get him to explain that bizarre reply as I am not a tyrant and I fight to protect my good name and high volume of repeat business, by getting personally involved where staff need my help.

Is that the only communication you had with my company ,since purchase , up to this week please?

I do find the phone is not the best way to communicate , lots of opportunity for hasty reactions that don’t alleviate the pain.

I am preparing to exchange your car for an automatic loan car and get yours into my workshop.

As the supplier your contract is with us and I will ,once we have solved the problem and you have confirmed you are happy with the car , send you a sorry for the inconvenience gesture.

Hope this brings me up to date,

Regards,

Mike.

Mike,

I appreciate that this frustrating for both of us - I think from your note below it is now clear that there is a disconnect in communication and that you are not aware of the history of the issue leading up to this point. The trail began with and included ****. I explained the background to Phil on Wednesday and I assumed he would have briefed you on the details but it appears that hasn't happened. I think the most sensible thing to do at this stage is for you and I to have 10 minutes on the phone together to explain the issue from the beginning and give you the complete picture. I am available over the weekend or Monday, let me know what works for you.

I am sorry,

Notifying me of the issue for the first time this week ,I am not being pressurized into a fix today.

If you feel you must proceed against us immediately I cannot stop you but would suggest you check with your solicitor that my reaction would be deemed reasonable and I would be given time to resolve it.

Laurence has been away with his sisters and I have not heard back that he is even in the country.

You frustration is not due to any action of **** and having covered 9,000 miles and owned the vehicle for the length of time you have, I will certainly not be giving you your money back today.

An alternate vehicle I would consider given time to inspect the car.

Regards,

Mike

Good afternoon Mike

Thank you for your note. I am of course open to a sensible and simple solution for all parties involved and believe there is no need for unnecessary friction. However as I am sure you can understand after 18 months of dealing with this issue on a brand new vehicle my patience is entirely exhausted with Citroen and its dealers. As I explained to Phil on Wednesday, we need a resolution to this by close of business today as I am not prepared to allow this to drag on any longer.


Laurence, please call me whenever you would like. I am available to speak now or any time this weekend.

Kind Regards,

Good afternoon

I started *** cars in 1980 and own it.

The problem with the car you purchased from me concerns me obviously and you are clearly very frustrated with your local dealer who have been unable to rectify it.

We have sold hundreds of “cacti”

and never had this raised before so I feel it’s particular to your car.

My son Laurence is not in the car business ( sensible chap!) but lives in London.

He could help , may he contact you so we can quickly go down a mutually simple route to getting this sorted?

Best regards, Mike.

 

[kaktus]

His point "I will look to see if a newer and less mileage car of the same model is available." I think is extremely reasonable of him, id take him on that offer, even if its not to your personal spec. Owners, dont care.

Oh I don't think he had a choice there. I have one of handful of Cactus EAT6 platinum grey models in the country (the colour and gearbox were introduced about 3 months before the car was phased out entirely and replaced with the new cactus in Dec 2017). So I think it would be really hard if not impossible to get an exact replacement.

 

[kaktus]

Glad it seems to be heading in the right direction and glad you followed my suggested approach, which seems to be working well for you.

Thanks Housey, your advice has been excellent so far. Genuinely appreciated. Let's see what he comes back with as I am still not convinced I shouldn't just be pressing for a refund or insisting on replacement for a new vehicle. Maybe he offers something I can at least sell for more than I would've got for mine.

DP seems reasonable and pragmatic, a good starting point and gut feel, he will look after you.

He sent a sarcastic email with a screenshot of his name and email address posted on his website (to be fair a bit obscure but it is there) and saying :
"how much easier than this do you want it to be?" after my last lengthy email to him. I was about to write "ok mike, I've tried to be nice about this but if your approach is to respond with sarcasm and an attempt to belittle then down the route of S75 we go". His follow-up email about the replacement car came in 0.1 seconds before I was about to hit Send

 

[kaktus]

As a general point for future reference, when it involves anything like this the selling dealer is the first point of call. Give them the chance (no more than 2-3 goes) and then if needs be bring the DP into the discussion. When I had issues with my R8 I took it to another dealer even though it was part of the same group. They were not happy to work on the car as they knew I was considering rejecting the car (I told them) and had been down the route with my RS4, which they sold me. My thinking was 2nd pair of eyes looking at the issue, but the Service Manager didn't want to get involved. It was at that point I put it to group level and Audi CEO office in Milton Keynes and few days later, fixed.

I can see that now but realistically how would that work when the selling dealership is 210 miles away? imagine it has to go back and forth 2-3 times, let alone 20-25 times as it did with Citroen Edgware. Delivery each way is £360. How would you manage the logistics of that? They certainly wouldn't pay to have the car brought back and forth each time no?

 

[kaktus]

Unfortunately from his side you can see that realistically you should have been dealing with them the entire time. You need to give them time to work out a solution.

As he states your contract is with them and so you may have trouble with a S75 without giving them a chance.

Yes I understand that but as I mentioned several times, his own representative and Citroen Customer Care both advised against that. So realistically or not, the customer was told not to do that. It can't then be he customer's fault that he or she has been dealing with the wrong party this whole time.

 

[kaktus]

d

Did they deliver the car to you or did you collect?

It'd be nice of them to collect the car, but I don't believe they are obligated to do so.

It's like buying something from a particular store and telling them to take the faulty goods from your house.

Delivered to me for £360. I think it's different when we are talking about consumer goods as they typically don't have this issue. i.e. I buy something from CPW I don't have to go back to that particular CPW to resolve the problem.

 

[kaktus]

That would be a strong argument. Whether it is definitive, I'm not so sure.

I think you even got from the emails, the DP was surprised at that comment.

Car was delivered to my home 6th June 2017. That day was torrential rainfall in London and by the time the car was delivered it was too dark to inspect. The following morning the car was inspected and driven. Please refer to the attached email for the communication between myself and Martyn. Martyn advised me by writing that the car "needed to be looked at by a local dealer" on 7th June 2017 at 4:51pm. I called Martyn to query this and was told there was no need to send the car back to **** as these are items that can be rectified under Citroen Warranty.

 

[kaktus]

That would be a strong argument. Whether it is definitive, I'm not so sure.

I think you even got from the emails, the DP was surprised at that comment.

edit:

I think you should ask for them to collect the car (for free) and to organise a courtesy car. You should also have a pre-agreed timeline whereby they either have the vehicle repaired or arrange a suitable swap. I think 4 weeks would be reasonable.

Then your S75 or court action would be much stronger.

If you win in court you will get what you paid minus the value in actual use that you got. This is likely to be higher than the market value if as you say you couldn't use the car a lot of the time (or at least didn't get the right utility from it).

Ok, I'll wait to see what DP comes back with on Monday and go from there.

 

[kaktus]

Update:

Have negotiated and agreed with Selling dealer principal to buy the car back off me for 77% of the purchase price. We agreed this is the most hassle free, sensible solution so we wouldn't then have to find an alternative which I didn't really want.

Though not ideal, I think it is a good result after all of this. By the DP buying it back off me I got about 16% more than market value and 25% more than trade-in. I received payment today and they will be collecting the vehicle this evening.

Thank you again for all that contributed and provided advice

Now to figure out what to replace it with!

 

[kaktus]

How much is your budget? I had to drive a mates qashqai for the last couple of days helping him move house, and honestly thought it seemed a great practical workhorse and super comfy.

I'm not entirely sure. up to £25k is fine with me buuutttt there is a slight complication. I may be moving to the States by December / Jan so I need to be smart about this. Either I:

• buy a used car, use it for 12 months and then either keep it or sell it on (depending on whether I move to US)
• buy a new car, same as above
• lease a car for 24 months, use it for 12 and park it for the rest of the time or try to hand it back and get some portion of the lease payments back

To be honest, I have had my eye on a Countryman for some time now - it was going to be the car I bought before the Cactus. It's also marginally more expensive insurance wise for me than the Cactus. Some other cars I thought about were the X2, Qashqai.

snip snip
Now then, new car time!

Thank you Sir!

I hear Citroen's are quite good cars!

Get your coat

 

[kaktus]

I wouldnt even bother looking at new / leases then. Just grab a high mileage freelander2 or something similar for a couple of grand than come moving time you can sell it to WBAC or similar and not care about it.

That suggestion didn't go down too well with the missus lol.

I think you're right though, lease/new doesn't make any sense with potentially a short ownership schedule.

On the basis that we might buy a used one (countryman) say a 2017 model - would it be reasonable to expect to put a few thousand miles on it during the year and be able to sell it on at the end of the year for say 10-15% less? What might be the best way to buy it? Straight cash I assume?

I found this one i like the look of and it's got the specs I would want. Just not sure how much of a loss I'd be looking at when I come to sell it 12 months on.

https://approvedusedminis.co.uk/veh...quoteref=400ade40-2026-4f74-abe7-432b977cd8ff

Ex-dealership car not used as a demo - apparently their IT tech guy was using it for 6 months.