Should the government do more to help the steel industry or....

[FTM]

Are you happy with then paying a significant increase in prices on goods which use expensive UK steel?

it wouldnt just be goods

presumably the cost of every infrastructure project the govt authorises would also be more expensive if bidders were forced to specify uk steel, so a cost to every tax payer as well

the bottom line at the moment is it costs too much to make and nobody wants to buy it...so you need to find a way to make it cost effective, whats the point of subsidising an industry that wont turn a profit. some of the banks that were propped up are now back in profit so they have been able to fix their business, can the UK steel industry do the same? if the answer is yes, then by all means bail them out, if the answer is no then why should tax payers feed a dying industry?

 

[Avenged7Fold]

As to resurrecting a Coal sector again - I for one and glad we have stopped digging that stuff out the ground to burn. Nuclear is probably the way to go - I imagine the same mount of pollution just concentrated into a smaller area

Nuclear is the way to go realistically in the short-medium term and subsidised with renewables.

It is far FAR cleaner and despite what oversimplified media reports seem to portray, not difficult to contain and dispose of. I specialised in radiation detection, measurements and nuclear physics when i studied physics at university and you would be surprised how bad a name has been painted for nuclear by people who know so little on it.

I doubt you will find anyone who has in depth knowledge of the subject to be opposed to it.

 

[Abraxaz1]

Can you comment (sorry if you already did, haven't read every reply) on the quality of steel we're (capable of) producing here in the UK vs whatever China's flooded the market with?

Like in real, factual terms, rather than "Theirs is crap, lol"

The main difference is Tata is a iso9001 company, which means we have quality control and it's proven.
The quality we produces is constant spot on with alloy levels and low phos and carbon in the making.
In the actual rolling, we have the small grain level, no surface damage. The crown and edges are within spec.

To put it simply Toyota are the hardest car manufacturer to sell to and they don't buy from China.

 

[wildman]

Are we capable of supplying that steel?

I can imagine we import a lot while we don't have the capabilities to produce what we use even if we forget about cost.

Anyone have any idea? I genuinely don't know, for all i know we produce more than we use but i think its likely the other way round by a fair margin

apparnatly yes

http://www.eef.org.uk/uksteel/About-the-industry/Steel-facts/Steel-markets-UK.htm

UK produces enough steel to supply all its own needs, its just that Chinese state sponsored steel is chepaer

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Then we should be looking to increase the steel margin by lowering costs through modernising the industry, not shifting the bill to other people in the UK. After costs are lowered, the industry would survive better and purchasing locally would be more feasible.

 

[wildman]

it wouldnt just be goods

presumably the cost of every infrastructure project the govt authorises would also be more expensive if bidders were forced to specify uk steel, so a cost to every tax payer as well

the bottom line at the moment is it costs too much to make and nobody wants to buy it...so you need to find a way to make it cost effective, whats the point of subsidising an industry that wont turn a profit. some of the banks that were propped up are now back in profit so they have been able to fix their business, can the UK steel industry do the same? if the answer is yes, then by all means bail them out, if the answer is no then why should tax payers feed a dying industry?

its not that simple though, what about self sustainability. Once UK deicides to outsource all its heavy industry and can no longer do anything for itself then there is nothin gto stop out so called suppliers from price hiking once they have a corner on the market. Not having the capbility to retain and manufacture nationally is a dangerous move. Imagine if we suddenly needed to mass produce a **** load of armour / weapons / defences because we were at war. We'd be at the mercy of our suppliers whoul could choke us off at any point.

This shouldn't just be about the price of steel it should also be about things such as retaining industry and jobs in the uk rather than putting a load more people out of work in an already depressed region of the country with zero prospects other than a zero hours cojtract working for Mike Ashley

 

[Roar87]

I don't think we can compete with China due to our higher wages and their state backing unfortunately, how ever Steel is an important asset that we shouldn't just do away with altogether. Probably worth keeping it at a minimal level so we still have the infrastructure and ability to ramp up production if needs be.

 

[wildman]

Then we should be looking to increase the steel margin by lowering costs through modernising the industry, not shifting the bill to other people in the UK. After costs are lowered, the industry would survive better and purchasing locally would be more feasible.

again not that simple, you can never compete with the state sponsored selling at a massive loss Chinese steel makers. They don't give a crap what price they sell at because they are propped up by Beijing and could literally give the stuff away free and still get paid by the government. Massive tarriffs on Chinese steel simialr to what happened in the US needs to happen in conjunction with modernisation if the british steel industry is going to see another christmas

 

[Bubo]

The first thing you do when you buy a tonne of chinese steel is to have it metalurgically tested to find out what it is actually made of, instead of what it says on the paperwork.

 

[jimjamuk]

Nuclear is the way to go realistically in the short-medium term and subsidised with renewables.

It is far FAR cleaner and despite what oversimplified media reports seem to portray, not difficult to contain and dispose of. I specialised in radiation detection, measurements and nuclear physics when i studied physics at university and you would be surprised how bad a name has been painted for nuclear by people who know so little on it.

I doubt you will find anyone who has in depth knowledge of the subject to be opposed to it.

I agree with you - the pollutants from the spent fuel is fairly finite in size and just needs to be managed properly. Much better than just releasing all manner of particles and gasses into the atmosphere to spread over a large area

 

[Avenged7Fold]

again not that simple, you can never compete with the state sponsored selling at a massive loss Chinese steel makers. They don't give a crap what price they sell at because they are propped up by Beijing and could literally give the stuff away free and still get paid by the government. Massive tarriffs on Chinese steel simialr to what happened in the US needs to happen in conjunction with modernisation if the british steel industry is going to see another christmas

Like i said, if it is not sustainable, i would rather let it sink. Though if we are looking to keep a minimal amount of industry, then we need to look at why the industry costs are so high rather than shifting the bill to someone else or blaming the EU green energy tariffs

 

[Dave M]

It is far FAR cleaner and despite what oversimplified media reports seem to portray, not difficult to contain and dispose of. I specialised in radiation detection, measurements and nuclear physics when i studied physics at university and you would be surprised how bad a name has been painted for nuclear by people who know so little on it.

A lot of damage was done to its reputation during the cold war when reactor design in the US and USSR was as much (more probably) about producing material for bombs as for generating clean power.

Modern designs produce much much less high level waste because they've been designed that way - older ones were quite the opposite!

 

[jimjamuk]

Shrink the industry down and keep a few plants open supplying UK gov projects with steel. There no point trying to keep the whole industry going if its a dead dog from the outset. If it ever comes profitable then we have abase to build from again

 

[scorza]

Then we should be looking to increase the steel margin by lowering costs through modernising the industry, not shifting the bill to other people in the UK. After costs are lowered, the industry would survive better and purchasing locally would be more feasible.

Or you could, y'know, enforce international law. What China is doing is against WTO rules, but the EU doesn't want a confrontation with China so they let it go.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

]Or[/B] you could, y'know, enforce international law. What China is doing is against WTO rules, but the EU doesn't want a confrontation with China so they let it go.

Regardless of whether china was doing this or not, the industry is operating incorrectly and should have its energy consumption lowered and receive the attention it needs to become more efficient and modern. There should be no OR about it. Stop trying to blame the EU for everything. In this case, the fault lies with the way the industry has been managed and the lack of attention it has received over the years.

So how will you realistically enforce international law in this situation?

Seems like you will need to throw a ton of weight around to get China to do anything, good luck doing that to save several thousand jobs. What China are doing is against the rules but we are talking about realistic solutions here.

 

[Bear]

I agree except UK should only buy UK steel.

What about UK people buying UK made products, instead we get every man and his dog obsessed with buying German cars then whine that the UK doesn't make anything.

People cant whine about manufacturing going down the pan when the very people in the country buy stuff made in other countries, then become all sympathetic and expect tax payers to bail the companies out when they are part of the cause.

 

[PMKeates]

People cant whine about manufacturing going down the pan when the very people in the country buy stuff made in other countries, then become all sympathetic and expect tax payers to bail the companies out when they are part of the cause.

It's natural for people to want to buy higher quality and lower cost goods and services. If we are unable to do this we will become a poorer country and no amount of bailouts and fiddling can prevent that.

 

[SPG]

A lot of damage was done to its reputation during the cold war when reactor design in the US and USSR was as much (more probably) about producing material for bombs as for generating clean power.

Modern designs produce much much less high level waste because they've been designed that way - older ones were quite the opposite!

Hence why the Thorium reactors were never invested or developed further, which just happen to be far far cleaner and safer but do not produce any Bomb making material whatsoever.

Crazy world indeed.

But back to steel, yes privatise it then throw significant sums of money into upgrading the facility. It needs to be thought of Infrastructure not a failing business model bled dry and starved from Investment by the TATA group. They did the same with JLR and was going to close it down if the government didnt step in.....

But all the Tory`s wont care a area where people will never in a million years vote for them.

 

[Bear]

It's natural for people to want to buy higher quality and lower cost goods and services. If we are unable to do this we will become a poorer country and no amount of bailouts and fiddling can prevent that.

Its natural for people to generally want to buy a cheaper or a higher quality product depending on your financial circumstances, but some don't even consider it when there is a British made competing product within the model/price range they are interested in.

The rest of your post is nonsense. People have a choice, only they decide not to support British firms and then moan when they go down the pan.

 

[Bear]

But back to steel, yes privatise it then throw significant sums of money into upgrading the facility. It needs to be thought of Infrastructure not a failing business model bled dry and starved from Investment by the TATA group. They did the same with JLR and was going to close it down if the government didnt step in.....

Huh, Jaguar were going down the pan under Ford ownership, since TATA bought JLR it has been doing very well in comparison unless I missed something?