Simulation
- Thread starter Danthus
- Start date
Before you talk about how you punish players I think you've got to look at the officials first.
I've been saying for years that refs encourage diving because they make their decisions based on the reaction of the player rather than the challenge that's made. Officials won't give penalties when a player stays on his feet even when he's clearly being fouled. Equally you know there's more chance of an opposition player being booked or sent off if you roll about a bit after being fouled than if you jump straight up.
I've been saying for years that refs encourage diving because they make their decisions based on the reaction of the player rather than the challenge that's made. Officials won't give penalties when a player stays on his feet even when he's clearly being fouled. Equally you know there's more chance of an opposition player being booked or sent off if you roll about a bit after being fouled than if you jump straight up.
You've missed the point. Whether the attacking player gets absolutely crunched, whether he gets slightly impeded and stays on his feet or whether there's zero contact but throws himself to the ground - it shouldn't matter if the ref is basing his decision on what the defender is doing.
Officials should be deciding whether something is a foul, penalty, yellow card or red card based on the challenge from the defensive player. That just isn't the case though. Officials are basing their decision on the attacking players reaction and that's why attackers will exaggerate fouls or blatantly dive because it's their reaction that will get the foul, not what the defender has done.
As soon as officials start concentrating of the challenge and not the reaction then diving won't pay so much and as a result it won't happen as much.
I wouldn't care one bit if it was all reviewed after the game and retrospective punishments given out. Same for players surrounding and hounding the ref, swearing at him and rolling on the floor while looking through your fingers to see where the ref is. Then jumping up the minute you know he's not interested. If the game had to be stopped give them a minimum 5 minute treatment time just to 'check' that would stop them.
As soon as you got a 1 then 3 game ban for that **** you can bet the managers would stop it happening.
As soon as you got a 1 then 3 game ban for that **** you can bet the managers would stop it happening.
The day a player sticks his finger up another players backside I'm finished with football.
Caporegime
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- 18 Oct 2002
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It's without question happened already, just potentially not on the pitch which is what I presume you meant
A number of thing would help prevent diving imo:
1. Make the punishment equivalent to what the defender would receive. I.e. if the defender would be red carded for denying a goal-scoring opportunity, then the diver gets a red card.
2. As above, retrospective action.
3. Ensuring that referees do punish defenders fairly for fouls. For example, you sometimes hear about how honest a striker has been for not going to ground, almost as if a foul hasn't been committed unless it has enough force to knock a player off his feet. It can be quite possible for a defender to prevent a goal-scoring opportunity by knocking a striker out of their stride; these incidents are rarely given penalties or even fouls.
1. Make the punishment equivalent to what the defender would receive. I.e. if the defender would be red carded for denying a goal-scoring opportunity, then the diver gets a red card.
2. As above, retrospective action.
3. Ensuring that referees do punish defenders fairly for fouls. For example, you sometimes hear about how honest a striker has been for not going to ground, almost as if a foul hasn't been committed unless it has enough force to knock a player off his feet. It can be quite possible for a defender to prevent a goal-scoring opportunity by knocking a striker out of their stride; these incidents are rarely given penalties or even fouls.
It's a difficult job being the man in the middle. I dunno maybe Sky have brainwashed us a little bit but as we have all seen, you watch a challenge from one angle at full speed and it's innocuous, from another slowed down, it's a clear dive with no contact and the ref's view is obscured.
In cases where there is clear simulation, especially if it could lead to another player being sent off then the offender or diver i.e. the one trying to gain an advantage by diving or cheating should also recieve a red card retrospectively.
Players and Coaches are taking advantage of the refs indecision or lack of decision making
In cases where there is clear simulation, especially if it could lead to another player being sent off then the offender or diver i.e. the one trying to gain an advantage by diving or cheating should also recieve a red card retrospectively.
Players and Coaches are taking advantage of the refs indecision or lack of decision making
Caporegime
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Robben dive from yesterday 
https://vine.co/v/O6Dpqvghe07
Has anyone actually realised that had Cahill not literally dived out of the way it would have been certain contact.
https://vine.co/v/O6IZ2THmTh3
Look at it a few times, you realise there is very minor contact on his right foot, if he hadn't brought his left leg up, right next to his left leg and high, a "normal" left leg had he not twisted would have gone straight into the player. It's avoiding action, nothing more or less. There are going to be times when a player sees an impact coming and tries to avoid it in doing so missing the player, it doesn't automatically become a dive.
Had Cahill run normally his left leg would have been caught by the one player and he'd likely have gone head first into the second player.
It's like when you have a defender who runs across sets his body throws a leg like he's going to annihilate the player with the ball then pulls out at literally the last millisecond possible, the guy with the ball braces for contact and looks like an idiot.
This is where simulation is a problem, there are loads of circumstances in which a player sensibly pulls out of a tackle or takes avoiding action. The Robben "dive" shows that sometimes the grass simply gives out, sometimes a player slips at the wrong moment. The issue is that most players can force these situations by diving or they can happen normally and punishing those who in no way attempted to dive the same as those who did dive is a very difficult thing.
THere are bad dives and they should be punished because it would stop most players attempting to dive and then the things that aren't dives but can look like them would generally not be a problem. When people get away with blatant dives the borderline ones upset everyone as well, when the blatant ones get punished and the frequency drops drastically the borderline ones aren't going to be seen as a problem.
https://vine.co/v/O6Dpqvghe07
Has anyone actually realised that had Cahill not literally dived out of the way it would have been certain contact.
https://vine.co/v/O6IZ2THmTh3
Look at it a few times, you realise there is very minor contact on his right foot, if he hadn't brought his left leg up, right next to his left leg and high, a "normal" left leg had he not twisted would have gone straight into the player. It's avoiding action, nothing more or less. There are going to be times when a player sees an impact coming and tries to avoid it in doing so missing the player, it doesn't automatically become a dive.
Had Cahill run normally his left leg would have been caught by the one player and he'd likely have gone head first into the second player.
It's like when you have a defender who runs across sets his body throws a leg like he's going to annihilate the player with the ball then pulls out at literally the last millisecond possible, the guy with the ball braces for contact and looks like an idiot.
This is where simulation is a problem, there are loads of circumstances in which a player sensibly pulls out of a tackle or takes avoiding action. The Robben "dive" shows that sometimes the grass simply gives out, sometimes a player slips at the wrong moment. The issue is that most players can force these situations by diving or they can happen normally and punishing those who in no way attempted to dive the same as those who did dive is a very difficult thing.
THere are bad dives and they should be punished because it would stop most players attempting to dive and then the things that aren't dives but can look like them would generally not be a problem. When people get away with blatant dives the borderline ones upset everyone as well, when the blatant ones get punished and the frequency drops drastically the borderline ones aren't going to be seen as a problem.
He did exactly that. Jumped out of the way. Cahill isn't innocent in all of this but the two defenders went to tackle him, yes they pulled out but very late and Cahill avoided a collision. Unless he can jumped 6 feet off the ground the only way he was avoiding that was doing what he did imo.
Caporegime
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Cahill isn't innocent? Jumping to avoid a collision that the other player would have caused is imho no different to if he had smashed into the defender who got in his way, had he not jumped out of the way it would have been a blatant penalty as the player blocked him so it should still have been a penalty.
As for jumping "out of the way", it's called physics, if you are running fowards at whatever speed he was doing, if you jump you go forwards, you can't magically in a split second decide hey I'm going forwards but I want to jump and land precisely 3 metres to the right of this point. He jumped, he was going forwards when he did this, if he jumped left he hits the first player, if he jumps to the right he hits the second player, his only option was to do what he did, turn sideways and attempt to miss both players and he did that as successfully as anyone could have.
If he hadn't avoided a massive hit he'd have gotten the penalty, the defenders didn't do anything different but he managed to avoid the hit, had the defenders not done what they did, which was cut him off, he was on the ball deep in the penalty box with a chance to square it. I think that is a penalty either way and I'd want the penalty.
It's like when someone jumps in with a two footed challenge, even if the other player sees it coming and jumps out of the way it's still a red card.
As for jumping "out of the way", it's called physics, if you are running fowards at whatever speed he was doing, if you jump you go forwards, you can't magically in a split second decide hey I'm going forwards but I want to jump and land precisely 3 metres to the right of this point. He jumped, he was going forwards when he did this, if he jumped left he hits the first player, if he jumps to the right he hits the second player, his only option was to do what he did, turn sideways and attempt to miss both players and he did that as successfully as anyone could have.
If he hadn't avoided a massive hit he'd have gotten the penalty, the defenders didn't do anything different but he managed to avoid the hit, had the defenders not done what they did, which was cut him off, he was on the ball deep in the penalty box with a chance to square it. I think that is a penalty either way and I'd want the penalty.
It's like when someone jumps in with a two footed challenge, even if the other player sees it coming and jumps out of the way it's still a red card.
No player HAS to cheat.
The continentals are the worst at it by far (going down lightly but also rolling around overly dramatically) but unfortunately its throughout the game now, very few players dont do it at all
Immediate red for any over dramatics would stop ( even if some bans where over turned after the game) a huge percentage of these dives / simulatuons
Going down lightly a mm into the pen box is as bad as no contact at all and simulating there was ( with feigned injury)
The continentals are the worst at it by far (going down lightly but also rolling around overly dramatically) but unfortunately its throughout the game now, very few players dont do it at all
Immediate red for any over dramatics would stop ( even if some bans where over turned after the game) a huge percentage of these dives / simulatuons
Going down lightly a mm into the pen box is as bad as no contact at all and simulating there was ( with feigned injury)