Skyrim - my story of woe :p

[FoxEye]

So I recently tried again to beat Skyrim. And again, I failed in a manner that was unfortunately not epic in any way.

The 2nd attempt was actually worse than the first

I simply find that as I level up, my character gets progressively weaker than the monsters. My latest char I've all but given up on, is only level 21... but he cannot progress. He has 60+ skill in illusion, but sadly this does not help him in the dungeons, where all undead are immune to all illusion spells.

He tried to level up conjuration to do some damage, but it simply would not skill up for him. He cast his familiar every fight, and his skill is still only 25, lagging far behind even his lock-picking skills. And this is something he was actively trying to level up, whereas lock-picking I didn't even want (but I compulsively have to pick locks I find )

So I said "screw it", gave up on summons and started using Destruction school. This is now his 2nd highest skill, behind illusion (skill 54). Trouble is, killing a single "Daugr Wight" takes more than all of his available mana, and they normally come in twos or threes. Meaning I kill one, then have to run out of the dungeon to recharge. It's extremely silly playstyle and deeply frustrating.

So basically at level 21, with Adept Destruction spells (fireball mostly), a single cast takes off about 10% of the Daugr health, and I have mana to cast it about 5 times before running out. This is a normal Daugr for my level (called "Daugr Wight" I think at about level 20).

The real kick in the testicles is that an NPC companion, using the same spell, kills a Daugr in two casts, because Skyrim scales NPC magic damage with level. It sadly does NOT scale the player's damage with level, so a level 20 player does the same damage with a fireball as a level 50 player.

(I must admit I play Skyrim without companions. The fact that they can't die makes the game stupidly trivial if you bring them with you. And the immense irritation of having to travel so slowly on foot so the companion AI can keep up with you, makes the experience of taking companions utterly infuriating.)

I would really like to finish this game. But both of my chars with 50+ hours on each are just getting their asses handed to them, because both rely on Destruction magic for damage, and you just can't kill even a single mob without running out of mana.

Maybe it's bad luck; maybe I just suck at this game. But the feeling of getting weaker and weaker as you level up makes Skyrim a bit of a unique experience for me.

I suspect there are "builds" that work and builds that don't, and I've just created two chars with builds that don't work. But it's a shame that the game lets you invest 50 hours into it before letting you know you're going to have to start again.

 

[FoxEye]

You have been picking appropriate perks, right?

Also dabbling in lots of enchanting to obtain magicka regen - you can learn the magicka regen enchantment by destroying some robes at an enchantment table!

Yes I'm trying to get enchanting up now as my last resort. It's hugely expensive tho. Meaning you have to do a lot of dungeon crawls to get the money... and my guy can't do the dungeon crawls because he's so weak in combat

Catch 22 I fear now.

Skyrim appears to very much be a game where you have to make every decision with foreknowledge, otherwise you get stuck in a no-win situation.

 

[FoxEye]

The games not terribly well balanced sadly as my sneaky archer character absolutely annihilated all of the content on the game including the DLC without much effort, yet I also gave up on magic based characters in the past due to how infuriating the play style is. On my last magic character, I ended up using a crossbow from one of the DLC things as it hit harder than my spells did lol.

The biggest problem for magic characters is that Skyrim does not scale magic damage with player level.

With melee and archery, when you level up you do more damage with the same weapon.

With magic, when you level up the damage remains static. BUT... NPC mages DO scale their magic damage with level.

So player mages get a unique disadvantage for no logical reason whatsoever. It just seems so stupid. Player and NPC archers + melee scale, NPC mages scale, player mages do not. Why Bethesda, why? Do you want me to spend half my play time navigating the menus to drink potions? Not to mention foraging for plants to make said potions?

Is it too much to ask to have the mana to finish one opponent without drinking a bunch of potions that require 30 mins to gather and create?

Just seems so crap when melee and archers do not have any of these problems. Seems like mages got hit hard with the nerf stick.

 

[FoxEye]

Is it still the case that your core abilities have the effect of levelling up the monsters, but non-core abilities don't affect levelling at all?

No, it's much worse in Skyrim. ALL your abilities are core abilities, and you will get a level roughly every 5 skill ups.

So if you do a bit of sneaking, lock picking, or alchemy.. you will level up. And you won't want to

Basically this:

 

[FoxEye]

That sounds like a fun build, and it's really making me itch to play Skyrim again. I loved using muffle to sneak better. I used archery for long distance and a good dagger/sword for stealth kills. Playing as a pacifist (well, more like on the fench **** stirrer) sounds like fun. Make them fight each other then profit

Illusion sounds like fun, but it is actually immensely frustrating too.

The one offensive spell Illusion has is Fury/Frenzy. This spell is /supposed/ to make bandits, etc, attack each other.

In practice it only works 25% of the time. The other 75% of the time, the bandit you cast it on comes straight for you, as do all his mates. Only /after/ killing you do they turn on each other.

So what you actually need to do is to run away all the time. And by the time the bandit you cast Fury on has stopped trying to chase after you, the spell has worn off.

The only sure-fire method is to have enough invisibility potions to be able to use one after every Fury/Frenzy cast. Which you won't.

So Illusion ends up being a save/load fest. You keep loading until the spell actually works as intended. Which means 3 out of 4 times you'll be reloading after casting it.

If the spell worked like the description said it should, it would be very powerful. But it doesn't 75% of the time.

I've even had situations where I'm hidden (sneak), cast the Fury spell into a room where nobody could see me, and everybody starts searching for me (including the Frenzy target) instead of fighting themselves. Ie, the spell seems to have no effect at all in many cases.

So yeah. Illusion is great fun when it works. But it doesn't work far too often.

 

[FoxEye]

(If you keep your current character, find, beg, buy or steal an item that increases your blacksmithing, and break it to learn the enchantment. Then smith a full leather suit, necklace and ring with blacksmith enhancement. Pop a blacksmith potion, then make yourself some weapons/armour immediately after. I once had a bow which had a base damage of 236! If you get the balance right, it can help you, until you decide it's a bit OP and then ditch it)

It seems to me that everyone, regardless of build, is investing in Enchanting. And most also do smithing.

Is that a fair comment? I'd been avoiding both of these completely, as I didn't want to raise yet another non-combat skill and level up even more.

I dont understand the problem with Destruction. As soon as you can dual wield fireballs, everything melts.

I don't understand people who say this.

1. Dual casting is less mana effecient. 2.2x the power for 2.8x the mana cost.
2. I already run out of mana before the mob dies.

I have 270 mana, 160 health, and 100 stamina. You can see where I put my points. Mostly in magic.

Yet I do honestly run out of mana casting fireball before I can kill the harder Draugr (and other mobs, like Master Vampires, ghosts, or dragons). Case in point the Blood Dragon I fought (actually cheesed ) at level 20. I had to refill my mana bar with potions about 5 times to kill it. It took half the potions I'd saved up to that point.

I've heard some people even say that Destruction magic is over-powered. I wonder if these are the people who max Enchanting early on, and reduce the spell cost to 0 - which is something of an exploit, you'd have to say.

 

[FoxEye]

Still, at least if I do re-roll, I've learned how useless lock picking is

The number of times I've unlocked an "Expert" level chest, only to find 12 gold inside, is a bad joke really.

At times it feels like Skyrim is a great adventure/explorer's game, but with really, truly terrible underlying mechanics.

You either become horrible OP or UP depending on the path you choose, and the combat is pretty dull after the first couple levels. I should probably just play one of the trillion unplayed Steam games in my library instead

 

[FoxEye]

you really need to define who your character will be from the start, switching your main skill level halfway through isn't going to work.

i generally go from character creation who they'll be, sneak with bows, sneak with daggers, one handed [with or without sheild], two handed etc.

magic is tricky, i personally don't preferr the playstyle, especially as when you run out of mana [which until you're really high level and have all the enchanted gear you'd ever want happens almost immediately]

Well as far as I can tell, with pure mages you basically have to use all the mages schools. There just isn't enough in any of the schools to base a character exclusively on that school.

Now with illusion magic you absolutely need to invest heavily in the perks just to have the illusion spells keep working as you level. By default, the illusion spells affect a max creature level of 6. So you NEED to invest heavily in illusion perks just to use the spells at all. Illusion spells without perks = utterly useless. Not just weak, unusable.

Basically my char was going to be an Illusionist - so I skilled it up and bought the perks. The reason I can't progress is because now I'm up against undead. All the illusion magic is unusable on undead. So then you find you need either Destruction or Conjuration to do damage.

BUT with already high illusion, comes a bunch of level ups. So anything I can summon gets one hit killed, and any destruction spell I cast takes off only 10% of the Draugr health. I don't have perks to spare because I was forced to spend them in illusion school.

Basically, at char creation I said this guy was going to be an illusionist, and I stuck to it (mixing in alchemy), but then I was unable to do anything about the undead.

So now I'm stuck getting my ass handed to me against opponents where my main magic cannot be used, and where my secondary magic is too weak to be effective.

If I'd chosen Destruction or Conjuration as my main school, I'd be doing better. But I wouldn't be able to use illusion as you must buy all the perks just to use your spells. I mean, imagine if firebolt just didn't work on higher level enemies AT ALL, unless you spent 6 perks to make it land. That would be nonsense, right? But that's illusion.

Hmm, the more I think about it the more I realise the system is just broken with bad design (with respect to magic).

 

[FoxEye]

I'm really tempted to play a Magic character now because of this thread! Damn Fallout

Destruction (fire/frost), Restoration (self healing), Illusion (wards and silent cast) and Summoning (Distraction mobs) would be my skill set for this, although I'd probably use the SkyPerk Overhaul mod to sort perks out, but would still be OK using the normal skill tree.

Would do the enchanting later into the game to get some good spell reduction robes if I hadn't looted any and a better staff should it be needed. First thing to train then is destruction to 60+ ASAP and all should be well!

I can tell you how well/ not well that's going to work out

The illusion tree is literally useless unless you buy every perk. If you're mixing in destruction, restoration and conjuration too, you're going to be high level, but very weak.

There is no synergy between the various magic schools, or magic with non magic. I think that's my magic chars have sucked so bad. No synergy.

Basically, for destruction to be powerful you need not to level anything else. Same with illusion. If you take illusion as a secondary skill, your spells will be resisted 100% of the time due to not having all the perks to increase their effective level.

The Restoration tree is even worse. The Turn Undead spells are capped very low (20 is the max level they will affect), and there is a lack of perks to increase the effective level by much at all. So if (as I am) you are already level 20, adding Restoration will be useless vs undead, because none of your turn spells will EVER be able to affect them.

This is the crazy thing about the game. It really discourages mixing in a bit of this and a bit of that, because of the very strict level caps on the abilities.

You can't "mix in a bit of illusion", because you simply won't be able to cast on anything your level. Will only be of any use on enemies far below your level, which you won't have a problem with anyhow.

And the one spell Illusion has that would be useful apart from Calm/Fear/Frenzy is Invisibility. But you only get that at Expert level. Same with Alteration's Paralyze. Only at Expert level.

Also to the guy who said that 50+ he's overpowered: you do know that Skyrim's enemies stop levelling with you at 50, right? So all the levels you get beyond that you are over-levelled for the content.

It's at 1-50 that builds work or don't work.

I played destruction/enchanted single hand sword or something like that and it was fairly powerful - with a bit more understanding of the game and another 5 levels or so it would probably have been over-powered - after L10 or so Draugr were no problem at all.

It's a fair point as long as you don't mix in too many other skills. If you just took Destruction and 1H weapons, your level would stay low enough for the spells to hurt the opponents.

Start mixing in other skills, esp non-combat, and your level shoots up. Your destruction magic stays static, however, meaning you get to where I am. A cast of fireball eating 1/5 of my mana, and doing 10% damage to the opponent.

Skyrim basically rewards you for ignoring as many skills as you can! At least if you play mage.

 

[FoxEye]

Just to give an example:

A mage with 50 in destruction and nothing else, is max level 7. He will have access to Fireball and rip through opponents like butter.

A mage with 50 in destruction/conjuration/restoration/illusion (the idea of one poster above), and you are about level 25-30. You Fireball spell still does the same damage the level 7 pure destruction mage does. But now you face level 30 opponents. You summons will be about level 16. The level 30 opponents will shred that summon.

Now here's another thing.

If as a level 30 character, you decide to pick up a bow and start shooting things, it will work. You can pick up a good bow for your level, and things will die to it.

But pick up a new school of magic, like Illusion, and your spells simply will not work at all. Because, level caps. Not exactly fair, is it.

 

[FoxEye]

You can get invisibility waaaaay before expert! It just costs a butt load of mana to cost is all!

C'mon - share the save file, I want a challenge!

Wrong. Nobody will sell the spell until you meet the skill requirement to cast it.

The only way to get Invis before 75 is to get lucky and find it as loot.

===You cannot buy any Adept/Expert/Master spell in Skryim without meeting the skill requirement to use it===

Yet another way magic is screwed.

e: Actually it's Skill_to_use -10. So Invis needs 65 skill in Illusion before you can buy it.

As I said before, I'm pretty sure it's -10 levels before you can unlock the respective perk, so,
novice: always available
apprentice: 15
adept: 40
expert: 65
master: 90

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/615803-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/62341075

 

[FoxEye]

You really want the file? I'll give you the file! You aren't ready for this file! Prepare your bunghole...

 

[FoxEye]

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=94724480962900647991

"Worst Skyrim Build, Ever."

e: My guy is in Yngvild, at the start of the dungeon. He can't clear it for love nor money. He gets ghost-raped.

e2: I'm not saying it's technically not possible to clear it. Just that it's a complete PITA, and very, very slow/painful compared to a properly working build. You would for sure have to run from many of the encounters. Kite, etc. Use all the potions I have left (not many).

Probably you would choose to leave and go somewhere else Leaving a dungeon is for the weak!

 

[FoxEye]

Go for it!

Also who said anything about selling? As I said before - Five Finger Discount

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/615803-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/69600721

You cannot find/buy/steal or otherwise acquire the Invisibility spell without having a skill of 65 in Illusion.

The game does not spawn it unless you have the required skill. Sad, but true.

 

[FoxEye]

You're a mage. You haven't been to Winterhold.

*facepalm*

There's no real benefit to going. I've already seen it on my first playthrough.

The only reason to go back is for master level spells, if you want them.

Attending the college is not a requirement of being a mage.

Can immediately see 1 MAJOR problem - not a single point into sneak! You already know you are made of the squishiest material known to man so why not lurk in the shadows?

Going down that tree instantly gets you some tasty backstab bonuses

Oh and quiet casting has been available to you for ages and you don't have a point in it!

My character hasn't ever swung a blade. Backstab isn't very magely, is it?

Anyway I will not be continuing with that char. I'll be re-rolling and possibly going for conjuration/restoration this time

 

[FoxEye]

You had a sword with health leech as a primary weapon!

Erm, no I didn't... I may have looted some weapons to sell, but I'm telling ya, look at his 1 handed skill. He only has the starting skill for an Imperial, give or take.

So like I said, he's never swung a 1H except maybe in the starting area

His primary was always Fury/Calm/Fear, and I had to add destruction to finish off the last enemy

So tell me... how did you get on in Yngvild against the ghosts?

 

[FoxEye]

The previous enemies were taken down with judicious use of sneaking/running away and weren't too tough.

You'll have to explain that one to me. I didn't know sneaking and running away was an effective way to kill your enemies How does it work?

The real problem here is the dungeon is too high level for your character and you appear to have gone in there without any real reason (no quest points here, yet)!

There is no indication of a dungeons level/difficulty before entering it. None at all.

Do you only go to places if a quest asks you to? I hadn't considered that just entering places as I found them was a bad idea.

 

[FoxEye]

Just as an experiment, I went and bought Turn Lesser Undead to see if it would help with the ghosts. I also discovered a couple of "Bane of the Undead" scrolls on me.

So with a little bit of optimism, as much as I could muster, I went back.

Lo and behold, ghosts aren't undead. They can't be turned and aren't affected by the scrolls. Nice one Bethesda. A ghost isn't undead. Wooooooooo!

I just don't get the logic here. The are capable of wield physical weapons and hurting you badly, they have massive physical resistance (that weapon in my inventory does nothing to them), and they can't be turned or hit with any anti-undead spells.

I mean, wtf is this.

Oh and btw, I'm not saying you're fibbing, but I just went back to that save, and ghosts don't die in three fireballs. More like six. Which for me was a problem when I could only cast it five times and three attack you at once.

 

[FoxEye]

OK so I went back to the save and each ghost at the entrance needs 7 (!) fireballs to kill. I have mana to cast 5 before needing to drink a potion. The dragur there also need 7 fireballs to kill. And if I get below 50% health (easy when you're being gangbanged), they can do a 1-hit-kill power attack.

All I'm saying is, magic builds basically suck balls. Sure, you can kite stuff around the dungeons, drink potions every 5 seconds, and run away a lot.

But a melee build would stroll around in plate armour and faceroll this stuff. Magic, on the other hand...

1. Level caps. Perks required to continue using your spells, not to make them more powerful. Contrast that with melee/archery. They can keep upgrading their weapons (does not require perks), and get more and more power from every perk they buy.

By far the majority of mage perks simply reduce the mana cost. You are also forced to buy the same perk (again) for each new spell level. Once you get Expert spells, the perks you bought to reduce mana cost of Novice and Apprentice spells are mostly now wasted, because you won't be casting them again. Does not seem fair.

The next set of "perks" for magic users are the ones that the game forces you to buy to continue using your spells as you level up. Thanks to horribly low level caps on Illusion and Restoration spells (turn undead is capped at 26, btw, and you can't increase it further. The master spell (which you can cast once with a full mana pool), is capped at 37 (30 if you don't buy the +25% perk). Yet undead scale to 50 and make up about 1/2 of the game enemies... Bethesda logic right there!

Why do melee/archers not have to buy perks as they level up, just to stop enemies being immune to their weapons? Again, Beth hates mages.

2. Spells that don't scale like melee/archery scales. Your fireball spell will never do more base damage than the day you learned it. Yes there are two perks to give it a +50% damage boost in total. But melee and archers get to boost their damage output by +100% at the very least. In fact, much, much more than that.

3. Mana. Melee do more damage and can still swing their swords with 0 stamina. Magic users can't do jack **** without mana.

4. There are no +Damage enchantments for mages. Only -mana_cost.

5. A mage will never 1 hit KO anything of an equal level. Archers and melee with smithing can/will 1 hit KO many things, even things greater than their level. They can also kill dragons in about 3-5 hits too. As demonstrated on YouTube. You'll notice that there are no mage videos showing off their amazing 1 hit KOs.

6. Of the summons, only the Deadric Lords can actually take a couple hits. If you try to "mix in" conjuration, your summons will get 1-hit KO'd. A Fire Atronach in Yngvild lasts about 2-3 hits, and costs me 1/4 of my mana bar to cast. Wooooohooo.

7. You can't "mix in" illusion at all, due to the level caps. You need 75 illusion skill and 4 perks for illusion spells to affect level 50 enemies.

8. Mages get protection spells that a) cost a lot mana - needed to do damage don't forget, b) run out after about 60-90 seconds, c) take about 2 seconds to cast, whilst you're getting hit, and d) are inferior to armour that is worn 24/7 by melee and archers. There are no "protection from arrows" type spells either. These spells really have no purpose at all. Mages that want protection are much better off spending the points in light armour instead.

In fact, the most useless skill set in the entire game is Alteration. I've yet to see anyone rate it above "utter waste of time".

So endeth another rant

 

[FoxEye]

Oh and another completely random "eff you" from Bethesda to mages:

You can't have a damage aura and a summon at the same time.

Why? Nobody knows. It's like saying melee can't hold a sword and shield at the same time. Makes zero sense.