So, this post office palaver then

Soldato
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I'm curious though - ignoring the morally correct, if Fujitsu built this to spec, custom build I assume? When it came to testing, the post office no doubt signed it all off.

I appreciate its bugs that caused the system, but is there any legal recourse for them to pay up?
i thought the same. Fjuitsu as the vendor would be responsble for Functional Spec, IQ/OQ based on the URS provided by the post office. The post office would have been responsbile for the PQ and UAT. So if they signed off on it then they (post office) did an extremely slack job on testing that it met the requirements correctly of which poressure testing the system and looking for bugs / anomalies would have been one of the key parameters.

If this happened in my industry (Pharma) on what was considered to be a key system responsbile for managing key data e.g a LIMS system or Change Control or in fact any other GxP qualified system on which the companies compliance heavily relies on, then there would have been a monumental ammount of sackings before it even got to this stage.
 
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Soldato
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i thought the same. Fjuitsu as the vendor would be responsble for Functional Spec, IQ/OQ based on the URS provided by the post office. The post office would have been responsbile for the PQ and UAT. So if they signed off on it then they (post office) did an extremely slack job on testing that it met the requirements correctly of which poressure testing the system and looking for bugs / anomalies would have been one of the key parameters.

If this happened in my industry (Pharma) on what was considered to be a key system responsbile for managing key data e.g a LIMS system or Change Control or in fact any other GxP qualified system on which the companies compliance heavily relies on, then there would have been a monumental ammount of sackings before it even got to this stage.


Right... but the post office, just like the government, always needs to find someone else to blame and to not take any responsibility for thier failings
 
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Damn, these people just come across as completely thick, she was asked to complete a witness statement and asked a load of questions and seemingly ignored or was confused by direct questions and ended up submitting just two and a half pages, not answering the questions... Obvs they're not impressed with it but even asking her about her professional background is causing a struggle for her re: remembering basic dates etc..

See just a few minutes from 00:02:15 re: his first question about this witness statement:

She's like an overpromoted dinner lady or something, no doubt there are plenty of local council employees, NHS admin people and various non-fast track civil servant types just like this daft bint.

Agreed, how do people as thick as this get into some of these jobs. There is 2 trains of thought, either she really is that thick, or she's playing a game to mitigate her involvement.
 
Caporegime
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Agreed, how do people as thick as this get into some of these jobs. There is 2 trains of thought, either she really is that thick, or she's playing a game to mitigate her involvement.

I think it's quite possibly a bit of both, she does seem to be both thick and incompetent but seems to play up the "I can't remember" card very frequently even when the questions aren't reliant on her memory of events.

Her questioning is the first two hours of that youtube clip and I just say down and watched it all as the snippets I'd seen were so ridiculous, I hope she's going to face a perjury charge after seeing some of that!

It concerns one of the subpostmasters (or rather postmistresses) who was initially taken to court and then the case was dropped and the Post Office settled with her, this thick woman was the regional manager. The PM had blamed the horizon software and had made a bunch of calls to the helpline about it, the regional manager suspended then sacked/terminated the contract of the PM.

She's asked about the investigation she did and she's just waffly or playing the memory card. She acts confused several times when presented with the witness statement from the case that she'd signed and submitted to the court along with some call logs... she doesn't know anything about a court case. It's explained to her more than once that this was settled before going to court and that this was the witness statement she submitted but she still acts confused when questioned about it.

One issue where she or someone else at the post office appears to have been dishonest is re: the call logs submitted to the court, there are some call logs where the regional manager has phones the horizon support line on behalf of the postmistress and reported issues with the horizon software. Also, there's a note closing out the support ticket as a known issue!!!!! Like FFS!!!!

Funnily enough, that was omitted despite her signed witness statement claiming to have submitted logs from certain dates - she seemingly feigns confusion when asked about it.

She's also asked about a claim that she told the postmistress to maintain her own set of records because of the issues with Horizon and provided her a book to do so... she again doesn't seem to remember this... then is presented with a letter signed by herself, to the postmistress proving this was the case.

Particularly damning, and where they presumably ought to get her for perjury, is on her witness statement she seems to try and pass off some claim that the postmistress phoned the Horizon support line a bunch of times but for assistance and not to report technical issues. She would have known that this was untrue at the time as she herself phoned to chase up technical issues the postmistress was trying to get resolved! That along with the logs missing from her submission to the court seems incredibly dodgy/dishonest.

She's seemingly not only not bothered to investigate the postmistresses defence re: technical issues that she clearly knew about (at least at the time anyway as she's quite forgetful now) but the seems to have been a clear attempt here to actively cover it up.

The comical part is just how she's treating the whole inquiry, she was sent all of the documents in July along with some questions, her reply/witness statement to the inquiry seemingly doesn't address the questions and when asked about basic stuff like the witness statement she signed and submitted to the court years back (which she was sent a copy of months ago) she's all confused and repeatedly gets in a muddle over what is being referred to etc.
 
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OMG they're all ****ing [redacted]!

This is the second one I've started watching, this guy isn't quite as dumb as the previous one but he's spent the first part of his session coming out with excuses for why he's also not really answered their questions in the witness statement (seems they sent Sheriffs around to make sure he replied, even then he's admitted to not having read all the documents, it's like 400-something pages in total and he's had nearly a month to read it all yet he basically claims in his witness statement that the documents he's not read won't help jog his memory.)

 
Caporegime
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Agreed, how do people as thick as this get into some of these jobs. There is 2 trains of thought, either she really is that thick, or she's playing a game to mitigate her involvement.

Just coming back to this point, I've now watched all of the interview with the dinner lady type woman and half of the interview with the Scottish investigator (he's not coming across as being as thick as she was but still kinda dumb). I might watch the rest of that later this week, I think I'd like to see the interview with the Post Office's solicitor and the other investigator who was described as mafia-like too in the next week or two if I find some time.

In both cases, they still seem to think the people they were investigating are still guilty! In both cases they don't seem to have treated this inquiry with the seriousness it deserved, the dumb dinner lady type had months to look through the documents she was sent and answer direct questions, her 2.5-page witness statement in response to the questions apparently didn't answer them and she was all over the place when the KC referred to various documents that she'd had plenty of time to read. She also thinks it's the postmistress's partner who was stealing but she's got not evidence for it and doesn't want to go into it but brings it up a few times in proceedings.

The Scottish guy didn't do any favours for national stereotypes, he didn't have as much time to prepare (seems to claim he had just under a month from where he was sent 400+ pages of documents to appearing) and it seemed he fobbed it off and was visited by Sheriffs who told him he needed to take it seriously and respond, blames having to move accommodation and long hours at work for his short witness statement but also has a little moan that he's no longer employed by the Post Office and isn't being paid for this... Like FFS!!! His main gripe seems to be that he had to read some stuff and do work (write a witness statement) for free!

People have had their livelihoods destroyed, ruined reputations, friendships and marriages and even taken their lives over this. It's a huge scandal and there is an obligation for those involved to help the inquiry as best as they can but instead, they seem to see it as a faff and don't want anything to do with it and think the people they delt with were still guilty anyway.

Edit - oh the reason for them both being thick seems to be that the Post Office has just let people fail upwards, the investigations manager has no qualifications relating to carrying out investigations, like the regional manager he just started out in some low-level job and seems to have been given more responsibility as a result of time served. The regional manager/dinner lady woman even fobs off most of the correspondence by saying that other people used to write that stuff for her as she wouldn't know about the technical or legal things, she'd just sign it. Even her signed witness statement inc call logs (where a key call involving her was suspiciously omitted) and which she submitted to a civil court she claims to not know about.
 
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Caporegime
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The King has stripped Paula Vennells of her CBE. Good thing too, she's shameless.

Should be charged tbh... There seemed to be evidence posted by a lawyer on twitter that she's very likely lied to a Parliamentary committee (IIRC) and so if they don't get her over anything else she's presided over then she perhaps ought to be charged with contempt of Parliament.

They absolutely need to make sure people face consequences for this, no slap on the wrist, criminal charges, claw back of bonuses. A big scandal and then coverup of this sort of magnitude ought to face consequences.
 
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Should be charged tbh... There seemed to be evidence posted by a lawyer on twitter that she's very likely lied to a Parliamentary committee (IIRC) and so if they don't get her over anything else she's presided over then she perhaps ought to be charged with contempt of Parliament.

They absolutely need to make sure people face consequences for this, no slap on the wrist, criminal charges, claw back of bonuses. A big scandal and then coverup of this sort of magnitude ought to face consequences.

I’m sure there’s millions of people that would love this to happen, me included but realistically they’ll not do much on this front as they’d set a precedent which would mean half, or more, of the current Government should face criminal consequences on various matters.
 
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I’m sure there’s millions of people that would love this to happen, me included but realistically they’ll not do much on this front as they’d set a precedent which would mean half, or more, of the current Government should face criminal consequences on various matters.

What matters?
 
Caporegime
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Oh I don't know, funnelling millions of public money to their friends to a start or businesses that they have vested interests in?

In other industries that's similar to insider trading, which is a lot of instances is illegal.

I think you're just muddling together some vague grievances - presumably the Covid PPE thing? That's got little to do with insider trading rules for a start but it's also dubious to assert that prosecuting the Post Office CEO sets any relevant precedent there.
 
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I think you're just muddling together some vague grievances - presumably the Covid PPE thing? That's got little to do with insider trading rules for a start but it's also dubious to assert that prosecuting the Post Office CEO sets any relevant precedent there.
I hardly think there's anything vague about public money being siphoned off, either to PPE or to various landlords of homes compulsory purchased for HS2, or the investigation into Teesport Freeport misspending of millions for example.

There's some very murky waters that if they start pinning down people and taking them to criminal court the public would be asking, what about "this matter", what about "that matter".
 
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I hardly think there's anything vague about public money being siphoned off, either to PPE or to various landlords of homes compulsory purchased for HS2, or the investigation into Teesport Freeport misspending of millions for example.

There's some very murky waters that if they start pinning down people and taking them to criminal court the public would be asking, what about "this matter", what about "that matter".

No, the vague bit is the relevance to the post office issues and what precedent would be set? You just seem to be airing a general grievance that you don't seem to have anything specific to link to the subject of this thread.

Michelle Mone might well be pursued further over that, whether or not the CEO of the Post Office is prosecuted doesn't have much relevance there.
 
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Caporegime
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No, the vague bit is the relevance to the post office issues and what precedent would be set? You just seem to be airing a general grievance that you don't seem to have anything specific to link to the subject of this thread.

Michelle Mone might well be pursued further over that, whether or not the CEO of the Post Office is prosecuted doesn't have much relevance there.

You think our politicians aren't on the take?


Would you be interested in buying a bridge? :D
 
Caporegime
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You think our politicians aren't on the take?

Would you be interested in buying a bridge? :D

Nope, I think the other poster is wrong and this Post Office CEO will be charged with something, at the very least contempt of parliament if they don't get her for something else.

We can check back in the coming months and see who is right if you like.
 
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I'm a bit late in here, and have skimmed through the thread
I haven't seen the documentary but there's a BBC podcast called The Great Post Office Trial which makes a good listen (apart from the endless repetition you get from short episode podcasts)
The last few episodes are informative and take you right back to the start of the whole Horizon project. At one point there's a claim made that it came across Gordon Brown's desk and he said the obvious thing to do was start again, and then it went to Tony Blair who waved the whole project on...after getting pressure from Fujitsu in Japan. I think the CEO even went to visit No. 10 at one point
 
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