software developer internship

xirokx · 5 Jun 2014 at 19:56

Hey guys,

Needed some advice.

A friend recently started a software developer internship after finishing in his second year at uni and needed some advice, as I dont know thought Id post here.

Basically at uni he learnt Java, in this internship he has to use C# , he told them this at the interview.

On day 1 he was given a task to write a program to convert XML to C# and then to update a database using lambda functions and LINQ. Basically what he has never done before.

So he tried asking for help and support and seems that even full time developers dont fully know what to do.

He was wondering if this is how all software developer internships are?

Is there no training? Is doesnt want to walk out and leave despite being quite honest and telling me he is not learning anything.

He basically sits at his desk and googles code and tries it out for 9hrs per day.

Can anyone experienced in internships provide any advice or any programmers?

Is this what happens in industry?

Thanks for your help as always

meandu229 · 5 Jun 2014 at 20:04

xirokx said:
Hey guys,

He basically sits at his desk and googles code and tries it out for 9hrs per day.

Plenty of developers do this, I recently moved to javascript for the 1st time at work no help given just google, aslong as the arent demanding him to unreasonable time scales this sounds normal.
If you are going to be a good developer you need to be able to jump between languages and technologies even if you havent looked at them before.

Randomface74 · 5 Jun 2014 at 20:09

It's normal for a junior developer to have to use google to learn how to do things.

If you go to a senior for help and they ask if you've googled it, and you say no... they say.. go google it...
(when you're senior you don't want to be hassled with easy questions)

It'll be like that for the first year. It's about being able to do enough that you're worth paying.

In the second year there's a choice to make whether to stay or go, depending on what experience you're getting and what you need for your career.

D.P. · 5 Jun 2014 at 20:13

meandu229 said:
Plenty of developers do this, I recently moved to javascript for the 1st time at work no help given just google, as long as the arent demanding him to unreasonable time scales this sounds normal.
If you are going to be a good developer you need to be able to jump between languages and technologies even if you havent looked at them before.

This, i also had to do some javascript a few months ago (yuck), jumped straight in, look at some examples. If he can program java he should have no issue with C#

You can either program or you can't. If you can tie a shoe lace on your left foot then it shouldn't be too hard to tie a bootlace on your right foot. The concepts and practices are more important than the syntax.

And yes, internships are not about 1 on 1 teaching, It is normal to be left alone mostly to get on with the task - the supervision should be there when needed but the interns shoudln't be led through everything. The most important skill is figuring everything out, not copying what someone tells you to do. That doesn't mean there is zero supervision though. If he is completely ignored all day every day and makes zero progress then something is wrong.

xirokx · 5 Jun 2014 at 20:20

If he is completely ignored all day every day and makes zero progress then something is wrong.

thats what seems to be happening....the progress he makes is by asking for help or from googling stuff.

he told me he has to code in visual studio and had never used that before, he did not even know how to start coding the program whether to use a windows form or a console. When he asked two different developers they gave him conflicting advice.

he has been badgering away but expected some kind of mentor or people to go to for help and to be introduced to them so wouldnt feel like a lemon just arriving at their desk asking for help.

he was not even told who to approach if he had any questions nor was he introduced to other members of the team.

fortunately he is a social person so introduced himself to a few people.

its important to note he is not a junior developer, he has just finished 2year of university and only has around 15months of coding in java under his belt in the form of assignments.

his worry is that he is not learning, sure the code compiles and work but that does mean its a good way of doing things etc

thanks for all replies so far

meandu229 · 5 Jun 2014 at 20:22

I think a lot depends on who you work with also, I myself came from our grad scheme and received very little guidance, apart from, from one guy. So now I try and help the newbie as much as I can but often my workload stops me giving as indepth answers as I would like.
I would advise you tell him to find someone who is relatively new/young as they will probably be more willing to help than the older generation who in my experience just like getting on with their job more than anything else. If possible also get someone to look over his code to check that it not only works (ie outputs what it needs to) but is also written in a good way. To use the above analogy even once you have tied your lace if no one showed you how to you might have just cellotaped the string down.

Randomface74 · 5 Jun 2014 at 20:23

learning to use visual studio is valuable experience

creating a windows form and a console and then choosing which he prefers is a reasonable way to go - he won't waste much time on this and it's a decent opportunity to learn the difference.

xirokx · 5 Jun 2014 at 20:29

I would advise you tell him to find someone who is relatively new/young as they will probably be more willing to help than the older generation who in my experience just like getting on with their job more than anything else. If possible also get someone to look over his code to check that it not only works (ie outputs what it needs to) but is also written in a good way. To use the above analogy even once you have tied your lace if no one showed you how to you might have just cellotaped the string down.

do you think he should continue? or is it like this in most places?

he is worried that if he pulls it off and writes the program then the tasks will only get harder. he feels like it would have been better had they got him to work with someone and write part of it. that way he could ask them for questions and kind of buddy up with them.

the funny thing is when he does ask for help not a lot of people (senior) know what to do, they confuse him even more.

So how much will he learn compared to lets say another company where he does receive some guidance and works in a team etc

meandu229 · 5 Jun 2014 at 20:34

It will very much depend on the place, some companies put a lot of money and time into this sort of thing because in the long run its better. But many companies dont see it as money making. It might be out of the frying pan into the fire.

he is worried that if he pulls it off and writes the program then the tasks will only get harder.

This will 100% happen because thats what programming is like, if you ever get to the point when your not learning/challenged then it gets boring, fast. Really not sure what to suggest be interesting to see what other people say about the amount of time given to team building and training.

dacads · 5 Jun 2014 at 21:39

What do you call 15 months of uni assignments if not junior developer? Definitely not senior..

Randomface74 · 5 Jun 2014 at 21:52

This is basically the same situation any developer gets in their first year of work - best to work hard and get the program written. The next program will be harder, but this one will seem easy.. and so on.

D.P. · 5 Jun 2014 at 22:35

xirokx said:
thats what seems to be happening....the progress he makes is by asking for help or from googling stuff.

he told me he has to code in visual studio and had never used that before, he did not even know how to start coding the program whether to use a windows form or a console. When he asked two different developers they gave him conflicting advice.

he has been badgering away but expected some kind of mentor or people to go to for help and to be introduced to them so wouldnt feel like a lemon just arriving at their desk asking for help.

he was not even told who to approach if he had any questions nor was he introduced to other members of the team.

fortunately he is a social person so introduced himself to a few people.

its important to note he is not a junior developer, he has just finished 2year of university and only has around 15months of coding in java under his belt in the form of assignments.

his worry is that he is not learning, sure the code compiles and work but that does mean its a good way of doing things etc

thanks for all replies so far

The thing is, he shouldn't necessarily need any guidance. If he can't work out what to do by himself then that looks poorly on him.
Guidance should be there to make him more efficient and to answer more technical questions,. He probably should have been setup on day 1 and shown the basics but any kind of 1-on-1 supervision is highly optimistic.

When you say things like he has to use visual studio but has never used that before it paints a picture that your friend is the problem. I had never used VS before about 2 months ago and I just installed and got on with it, dead simple. there is nothing difficult about it. You end up doing the same thing time and time again. In our company you would be expected to pick up Xcode for iphone, eclipse for android, VS for some windows C# and they can use whatever they want for main sever development (most of us use Emacs and the like).

A lot internships are about throwing people in the deep end and seeing who can swim. those who sink to the bottom of the pool because they are incapable either technical or socially (in getting help) will be ignored, those who learn backstroke, front crawl and butterfly get a job offer with a golden hand shake.
Employers want people who can stand on their own 2 feet, not someone who has to constantly badger senior staff.

And your friend is very junior. Senior developers have been coding for a good 10 years

-----------
It may be that the company is utterly hopeless (many are) but your friend should be able to do something. If he is given a a task and know what needs to be done then he should code it the way he thinks best

Amleto · 5 Jun 2014 at 23:55

xirokx said:
its important to note he is not a junior developer, he has just finished 2year of university and only has around 15months of coding in java under his belt in the form of assignments.

you're right, he doesn't even qualify as 'junior developer'.

sound's like a **** company to not even introduce him and give him a first contact.

dowie · 7 Jun 2014 at 16:12

xirokx said:
Basically at uni he learnt Java, in this internship he has to use C# , he told them this at the interview.

On day 1 he was given a task to write a program to convert XML to C# and then to update a database using lambda functions and LINQ. Basically what he has never done before.

Presumably they'll give him a bit of slack on the deadlines then if he runs into difficulties given that he's learning as he goes along...

So he tried asking for help and support and seems that even full time developers dont fully know what to do.

He was wondering if this is how all software developer internships are?

Dunno... but its not uncommon in various companies to be thrown in the deep end and have to struggle at first. He can ask for help obviously but be careful how you do this... take lots of notes - people should usually help someone who is fairly new but if someone shows you how to do something once then you definitely don't want to ask a second time... that's when questions become annoying and they'll start lowering their opinions.

Is there no training? Is doesnt want to walk out and leave despite being quite honest and telling me he is not learning anything.

He basically sits at his desk and googles code and tries it out for 9hrs per day.

That doesn't make much sense - if he's been set tasks that are new to him and that he's struggling with then by default he should be learning a lot. He definitely shouldn't walk out... maybe not all firms are like this one but plenty are and being forced to learn a lot unsupervised and work on real projects, deal with a mix of helpful and unhelpful people, have things go wrong... get pressured close to deadlines etc..etc.. is all good experience. You're definitely not going to be spoon fed at every company you work for and its probably better to experience being thrown in at the deep end sooner rather than later. New technologies are going to continue to emerge and people working in software will often have to adapt.

Is this what happens in industry?

Can be... I work as a BA in a software firm... we had a brief 'training scheme' that didn't in anyway equip us to do the roles we were assigned - you just had to pick things up as you went along - find out who the right people were to learn from and don't annoy them too much with questions.

Top tip - if you're stuck with something have a go at it first... run through your thought process and show you've attempted to tackle the problem - then go and ask someone. You're much more likely to get help that way if you've had a decent attempt yourself and it will be much less annoying for the experienced person.

xirokx · 7 Jun 2014 at 20:15

thanks for your responses and suggestions...

i have been in touch with him every 2 - 3 days and spoke to him earlier today.

he mentioned he always tries things first, attempts to think through the logic by himself but feels frustated at the lack of skills university equipped him with him.

so what he has started doing is approaching team members and explaining what he is doing, how he thinks he should do it or show them what he has done and difficultly he is having trying to resolve the rest of it. He feels this is the best way and they have been helping as they appreciate he has not done anything like this so are pulling together to help.

he said he always tries first before approaching them to show that he is at least trying.

he also said he speaks to people telling them how he would go about it and if they have any learning resources he can come upto speed with on the matter

thanks for your help guys

tidusjar · 8 Jun 2014 at 14:42

xirokx said:
thats what seems to be happening....the progress he makes is by asking for help or from googling stuff.

he told me he has to code in visual studio and had never used that before, he did not even know how to start coding the program whether to use a windows form or a console. When he asked two different developers they gave him conflicting advice.

he has been badgering away but expected some kind of mentor or people to go to for help and to be introduced to them so wouldnt feel like a lemon just arriving at their desk asking for help.

he was not even told who to approach if he had any questions nor was he introduced to other members of the team.

fortunately he is a social person so introduced himself to a few people.

its important to note he is not a junior developer, he has just finished 2year of university and only has around 15months of coding in java under his belt in the form of assignments.

his worry is that he is not learning, sure the code compiles and work but that does mean its a good way of doing things etc

thanks for all replies so far

Regarding C#, If he has to google basic design patters or even the basic syntax. He is a Junior. He did not apply for a Java job. Tell him to suck it up, not everything is going to be handed onto a plate for him. Welcome to the grownups world.

Nuluvius · 27 Jun 2014 at 21:02

I'm going to be blunt and share my own experience because I suspect you may appreciate it.

Yes the things you describe are normal. However if doing things properly and by this I mean following the Agile/Scrum development methodology and TDD. One would usually spend time researching the technology first. Then prototyping it and once happy then comes the actual implementation in which the design is driven out by the TDD.

In this doctrine, usually it is seen as the team's responsibility to complete what they have committed to in a sprint. If that means helping another team member who is struggling then so be it.

When I was at university myself I was given the option of doing an internship between my second and third years. I declined it and went out and got a real job. Justification being; why should I go and work for peanuts/nothing and delay my career by a year when I could instead try and get employed as a developer on equal standing and earnings? I had to phone around a fair bit but eventually I found a company that was willing to take me on while I was completing my degree.

Looking back for me this was the correct choice for me as every company I have been with to date have commented on how much they respect and admire the fact that I worked a job and completed a dissertation (3rd year of a degree). Adding to the reasoning is my age; I simply didn't have the time to spare as I came back to education so late.

Yes I will not deny that it was hard. It was the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life to date. There were times when I almost lost control of the balancing act and came within a hairs width of watching my life implode from the preasure. But it was fun and more than that I feel that I learned FAR more than I ever could have done waiting my life away at an internship.

After graduating I went full time for a further year before moving on. All the other jobs I went to have been as you describe with the exception of my current one. The trip from junior upwards was a difficult one; many hours of hair pulling, crying, begging and scraping for knowledge and help in much the same way as your friend. Compounded further by an obsession over detail and a drive for doing things properly and eloquently.