Some advice please - Mini Hatch/Countryman

[sansnom]

Could really use some advice here - been looking at the 5 door hatch and the Countryman for some time now and I'm struggling to justify the cost even though I really want one of either.

Figured I would defer to the wisdom of Motors but please, no comments like 'go for a fiesta' or 'what? countryman? rofllolz'. I don't care what about subjective views.

I'm looking for objective advice on whether to buy one or the other, which model and what options or whether to avoid both for a sound reason. What I like about the mini is the overall design, size, interior look and feel and driving experience (nippy, hugs the road etc, countryman not so much but still nice to drive). What I don't like is the pricing and from what I can tell seems very patchy reliability record though I don't know if this still applies to the current generation.

I would be buying new or possibly used 2015+ if i can find a decent one in the right spec.

 

[Demon]

The new 2017 countryman is much larger than the previous 2011 - 2016 model and has a much improved interior.

The wife liked her old countryman, but ultimately it was a bit too small for the family (including dog) however it had bags of character which made it preferable to the wife than a humdrum fiesta.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Make sure its a current generation car - so this means a post 2014 Hatch or a basically brand new Countryman as the new Countryman was only launched 3 months ago.

 

[sansnom]

Make sure its a current generation car - so this means a post 2014 Hatch or a basically brand new Countryman as the new Countryman was only launched 3 months ago.

Thanks Fox. I did read up and it's pretty unanimous to avoid any hatches pre-2014. Is there any real difference between the 2014's, 2015's, 2016's or 2017's though? I think the 4 door hatch was only released in 2015.

Is there a particular reason to avoid the pre 2017 countryman other than it being based off an older platform? My local mini dealers have some pretty interesting examples from 2014 and 2015. The new price for a decently spec'd countryman is eye watering.

Speaking of specs, any particular things I should look for or add? I'm basically putting just chili pack and JCW sport kits but have ignored pretty much everything else as the list of options are dizzying

 

[johnny6]

Personally on a 30-35k plus car I would want satnav

 

[Jonnycoupe]

5 door hatch is new generation by default anyway.

Mid ground might be a clubman which has also been out longer.

Old Countryman is pretty old and at the end of its platform bandwidth, ride and noise isn't great nor is the infotainment and general interfaces. Decent enough car but its a £12k car discussion around 2012 models rather than entertaining against the newer Minis off the new UKL1 platform and later engine family. Not sure if they have just launched CarPlay into the MINIs?

I've got a 2013 Countryman Cooper S and although tempted to jump to the newer one (maybe even the Plugin Cooper SE) the price jump to new ones is pretty significant!

 

[sansnom]

5 door hatch is new generation by default anyway.

Mid ground might be a clubman which has also been out longer.

Old Countryman is pretty old and at the end of its platform bandwidth, ride and noise isn't great nor is the infotainment and general interfaces. Decent enough car but its a £12k car discussion around 2012 models rather than entertaining against the newer Minis off the new UKL1 platform and later engine family. Not sure if they have just launched CarPlay into the MINIs?

I've got a 2013 Countryman Cooper S and although tempted to jump to the newer one (maybe even the Plugin Cooper SE) the price jump to new ones is pretty significant!

Yup that's kind of what im trying to determine. My local mini (mini chiswick) have a number of 2013/2014/2015 countryman's at sub 15k (mostly diesels) with only a few thousand miles. I'm trying to figure out if it's worth paying double for a new one or if the older models are reliable, enjoyable and will be basically 90/95% the same as getting one of the newer platform models.

Clubman unfortunately is rather ugly to me so I wouldn't be interested in that.

In general, does it make sense to buy a 4 door hatch or a countryman? If they were each 10k cheaper on list price I wouldn't be asking but because I feel they're so overpriced I'm really trying hard to justify the cost with so many other possible options other there for the money.

 

[tek2k]

if it were me, personally, I wouldn't pay that kind of money for the hatch or the countrymn

As others have said, the pre late 2014 (f56) hatches are rolling disasters that spend more time in a workshop than on the road. From what I have heard, the new F56 (2014 onwards) are only very slightly better. When the novelty of the mini wears off you're going to be left with an expensive to insure, expensive to maintain, expensive to run, small, relatively unreliable, laughably impractical (unless you get a countryman) car that cost you upwards of 25k. That is crazy money for something like this and it's the reason you only see hipsters and young girls driving them because they have no better sense.

Honestly, save yourself the headache and buy something much much better for the same money or something much cheaper. Have you thought about something like a Mazda CX-3? Or a C4 Cactus? Or Seat Ateca? All much cheaper, about the same size and frankly far better cars

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Yup that's kind of what im trying to determine. My local mini (mini chiswick) have a number of 2013/2014/2015 countryman's at sub 15k (mostly diesels) with only a few thousand miles. I'm trying to figure out if it's worth paying double for a new one or if the older models are reliable, enjoyable and will be basically 90/95% the same as getting one of the newer platform models.

Clubman unfortunately is rather ugly to me so I wouldn't be interested in that.

In general, does it make sense to buy a 4 door hatch or a countryman? If they were each 10k cheaper on list price I wouldn't be asking but because I feel they're so overpriced I'm really trying hard to justify the cost with so many other possible options other there for the money.

if your getting a countryman then i think the SD engine is the one to go for. seen one for £7,500 with lowish miles 60K. would i pay £20K+ for one? no chance

why not get a nissan juke brand new for £10K cheaper? if you want brand new that is.

 

[DereksDontRun]

GF has had a 2012 Countryman All4 Cooper D for a few years and it's been pretty good, but the cooper diesel engine is awful - I dunno if it's just the engine being underpowered, if the stock map is prioritising emissions and/or economy or if the AWD system is just too much load on the system, but try to pull away from a slow speed in 2nd and it bogs down enough to practically stall (ie approach a roundabout, change down to 2nd and slow down while approaching it, spot it's free before stopping, say about 10mph, try to accelerate away and nowt... it needs to change down to 1st even though it's moving. every friggin time) I can only imagine the SD is better. She's been looking to change and move away from diesel (mainly out of fear prices might plummet) and like the Countryman enough to get another. But, saying that, she wants petrol, manual, AWD, and a "small" SUV and there's little choice, especially with nice/quirky styling. Most AWD SUVs seem to be auto only (Juke - with an awful reputation for its auto box), diesel only (CX3), just boxy/ugly or too new to be afforable (3008)

 

[[TW]Fox]

iAs others have said, the pre late 2014 (f56) hatches are rolling disasters that spend more time in a workshop than on the road. From what I have heard, the new F56 (2014 onwards) are only very slightly better. When the novelty of the mini wears off you're going to be left with an expensive to insure, expensive to maintain, expensive to run, small, relatively unreliable, laughably impractical (unless you get a countryman) car that cost you upwards of 25k. That is crazy money for something like this and it's the reason you only see hipsters and young girls driving them because they have no better sense.

I strongly disagree with all of this.

We have a 2012 Cooper which we've had since it was a year old. In that time, I have found that it has been generally very reliable and has cost negligible amounts of money to own. It came with Mini TLC so has cost not a penny to service in 4 years of ownership with the exception of a 60 quid brake fluid change and anything that's gone wrong has been attended to with zero fuss, zero hassle and no drama but the Mini warranty which once expired costs us just 400 quid a year. In the 4 years we've had it, its depreciated by only about 6 grand, which for 4 years of low-cost motoring in what is still quite a 'desirable' car is absolutely excellent.

The purchase price is irrelevant, what matters is the total ownership costs and due to the low depreciation the total ownership costs on these cars are very low.

I have my criticisms of the car - but most of these are related to the specification rather than the fundamentals, though other than excellent fuel economy I do dislike the 1.6 petrol engine in the car - it's slow and not particularly refined but thats the only major fundamental criticism.

The new model, introduced in 2014, is even better - it fixes all the spec oddities, brings the car bang up to date with F Series BMW tech level and introduces a range of more modern and better engines. It's also noticeable better screwed together inside.

It will be replaced soon and I wouldn't even waste my time running the numbers on some of the 'far better' suggestions you make. Seriously, a C4 Cactus? Far better than a current gen Mini Cooper? Just lol.

There is a lot of hate around for the Mini and IMHO it's all fairly unjustified unless you're talking about really old, tired examples with no warranty etc.

My only concern in this thread wold be that the 2006 era Minii s showing its age now and I would not be wanting to be spending anything like £15k on any car based on its platform and that includes the Countryman sadly.

So the only credible solutions here are 2014- hatch (3 or 5 door), 2016- Clubman or the 2017- Countryman.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

We have a 2012 Cooper which we've had since it was a year old. In that time, I have found that it has been generally very reliable and has cost negligible amounts of money to own. It came with Mini TLC so has cost not a penny to service in 4 years of ownership with the exception of a 60 quid brake fluid change and anything that's gone wrong has been attended to with zero fuss, zero hassle and no drama but the Mini warranty which once expired costs us just 400 quid a year. In the 4 years we've had it, its depreciated by only about 6 grand, which for 4 years of low-cost motoring in what is still quite a 'desirable' car is absolutely excellent.

Isn't the brake fluid change included in the TLC package ? wife's Countryman has had it changed at no cost.

 

[[TW]Fox]

First one is, second one isn't.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

First one is, second one isn't.

Must have been lucky getting the second one paid for. It stayed in for warranty work following the service so maybe just got missed off, they did stamp the book advising it was changed.

 

[Hedge]

I strongly disagree with all of this.

It came with Mini TLC so has cost not a penny to service in 4 years of ownership with the exception of a 60 quid brake fluid change and anything that's gone wrong has been attended to with zero fuss, zero hassle and no drama but the Mini warranty which once expired costs us just 400 quid a year. .

When you say "anything that's gone wrong has been attended to" what went wrong?

Also what Mileage have you done in the 4 years. Because that depreciation seems very low.

 

[[TW]Fox]

It has covered about 45k miles in that time.

It's had a new brake caliper and a water pump.

I think we'd probably just keep it were it not for a number of really annoying spec omissions.

 

[tek2k]

I strongly disagree with all of this.

We have a 2012 Cooper which we've had since it was a year old. In that time, I have found that it has been generally very reliable and has cost negligible amounts of money to own. It came with Mini TLC so has cost not a penny to service in 4 years of ownership with the exception of a 60 quid brake fluid change and anything that's gone wrong has been attended to with zero fuss, zero hassle and no drama but the Mini warranty which once expired costs us just 400 quid a year. In the 4 years we've had it, its depreciated by only about 6 grand, which for 4 years of low-cost motoring in what is still quite a 'desirable' car is absolutely excellent.

I strongly disagree with pretty much your entire post.

I just priced up mid spec 5DR hatch and countryman on mini's website. PCP residual value prices the hatch at 42% of purchase price after 36 months and countryman at 47% of purchase price after 36 months. Looking at Autotrader most 3-4 year old hatches (3dr) and countryman's are listed at well below assumed purchase prices based on the engines and packs (not accounting for specific additional items as i dont have time to price these all up separately, it's enough for the exercise we're doing here). Now you can argue that most cars will lose close to 50% of their value in 3 years so mini is no better or worse off, and that would be fair, but I wouldn't say they hold their value superbly.

The purchase price is irrelevant, what matters is the total ownership costs and due to the low depreciation the total ownership costs on these cars are very low.

With all due respect the purchase price is not irrelevant and the total cost of ownership is definitely not low when you're buying a car that's grossly overpriced to begin with. One has to cough up a minimum of 25k for a 'desirable' spec or some combination of a deposit and monthly payments which will see that individual lose a large chunk of that cash over a short period of time. Buy a car for 10k and lose 50% would be proportionately the same as buying a car for 50k and losing 25k but I think you'll agree that the two absolute loss figures are very different. For his expected loss of c.50% of the mini's value he could outright buy something like the Cactus (not advocating he does, was just giving options) and I think that makes a big difference to the argument.

I have my criticisms of the car - but most of these are related to the specification rather than the fundamentals, though other than excellent fuel economy I do dislike the 1.6 petrol engine in the car - it's slow and not particularly refined but thats the only major fundamental criticism.

The new model, introduced in 2014, is even better - it fixes all the spec oddities, brings the car bang up to date with F Series BMW tech level and introduces a range of more modern and better engines. It's also noticeable better screwed together inside.

car and driver had a pretty damning long term review test with this conclusion:
Most disappointing of all, this kind of aggravating Mini experience isn’t a new one for us. It’s an echo of the quality we witnessed during long-term tests of a 2009 John Cooper Works Convertible and a 2011 Cooper S Countryman. This story should be a discussion of the Mini’s rough ride, its animated engine, the inflated price, and its spry handling. But we can’t write that story because, for 21 months, we were antagonized by maddening noises and the accompanying headaches.

And

The MINI took a big tumble in the 2016 Driver Power survey, falling to 97th place overall.

The previous MINI Hatch finished a dismal 142nd place out of 150 cars for reliability, and the new car seems to be following in its footsteps - the lowest rankings were for build quality and reliability, which is disappointing when you consider the MINI shares many components with BMW cars.

MINI didn't fare very well in the Driver Power manufacturer rankings, either. It came 29th out of 32 manufacturers, falling thirteen places from its position in 16th in 2015. It came last out of all manufacturers for reliability and ride quality, but scored well for running costs.

It will be replaced soon and I wouldn't even waste my time running the numbers on some of the 'far better' suggestions you make. Seriously, a C4 Cactus? Far better than a current gen Mini Cooper? Just lol.

There is a lot of hate around for the Mini and IMHO it's all fairly unjustified unless you're talking about really old, tired examples with no warranty etc.

Is there something wrong with the Cactus? Last time I checked it was highly rated by almost every reviewer. It's fine if you don't like it but it's a bit rich to say there's a lot of hate for a mini and then start bashing the Cactus for no reason whatsoever. And to be clear, I was suggesting the Cactus (among 2 other options) as a potential alternative to the Countryman. The New EAT6 1.2litre turbo petrol is a fine engine and transmission that comes from a company co-owned by Toyota so reliability should be very good indeed. It'll cost him less than half the absurd countryman and has far better MPG

 

[[TW]Fox]

I just priced up mid spec 5DR hatch and countryman on mini's website. PCP residual value prices the hatch at 42% of purchase price after 36 months and countryman at 47% of purchase price after 36 months. Looking at Autotrader most 3-4 year old hatches (3dr) and countryman's are listed at well below assumed purchase prices based on the engines and packs (not accounting for specific additional items as i dont have time to price these all up separately, it's enough for the exercise we're doing here). Now you can argue that most cars will lose close to 50% of their value in 3 years so mini is no better or worse off, and that would be fair, but I wouldn't say they hold their value superbly.

Nobody pays list price for a Mini unless they are daft.

With all due respect the purchase price is not irrelevant and the total cost of ownership is definitely not low when you're buying a car that's grossly overpriced to begin with.

The purchase price is irrelevant - what matters is purchase price less residual value. A £30k car thats worth £20k in 3 years time is cheaper than a £20k car thats worth £5k in 3 years time, for example, despite being more expensive in terms of purchase price.

One has to cough up a minimum of 25k for a 'desirable' spec or some combination of a deposit and monthly payments which will see that individual lose a large chunk of that cash over a short period of time. Buy a car for 10k and lose 50% would be proportionately the same as buying a car for 50k and losing 25k but I think you'll agree that the two absolute loss figures are very different. For his expected loss of c.50% of the mini's value he could outright buy something like the Cactus (not advocating he does, was just giving options) and I think that makes a big difference to the argument.

I have never looked into the purchase of a Countryman but you don't need a minimum of £25k for a Mini hatch. The Cooper starts at £15k new, a high specification example is £18-19k after negotiations, for a brand new car. Used you can expect to pay £15-16k for a decent enough year old car. There are many overpriced used ones - so don't buy them.

The previous MINI Hatch finished a dismal 142nd place out of 150 cars for reliability, and the new car seems to be following in its footsteps - the lowest rankings were for build quality and reliability, which is disappointing when you consider the MINI shares many components with BMW cars.

MINI didn't fare very well in the Driver Power manufacturer rankings, either. It came 29th out of 32 manufacturers, falling thirteen places from its position in 16th in 2015. It came last out of all manufacturers for reliability and ride quality, but scored well for running costs.

This hasn't been my experience but frankly even if it was, Mini pick up the tab.

Build quality inside is a bit suspect, I agree with that. It's one area where the new model is a major improvement.

Like I said, we've run it from 1 year to 5 years old and in that time have lost about £6000 in depreciation, spend £800 on two years warranty and paid 60 quid for a brake fluid change. It's cost £120 a year to tax, has averaged 45mpg and only needed one new set of tyres.

For what was a year old 'hipster' car IMHO that's incredibly reasonable motoring costs. I can't think of many cheaper ways of covering 45k miles in a nearly new car. Certainly I doubt a Fiesta or a Corsa would have been cheaper - likely more expensive by virtue of the higher depreciation.

Is there something wrong with the Cactus? Last time I checked it was highly rated by almost every reviewer. It's fine if you don't like it but it's a bit rich to say there's a lot of hate for a mini and then start bashing the Cactus for no reason whatsoever. And to be clear, I was suggesting the Cactus (among 2 other options) as a potential alternative to the Countryman. The New EAT6 1.2litre turbo petrol is a fine engine and transmission that comes from a company co-owned by Toyota so reliability should be very good indeed. It'll cost him less than half the absurd countryman and has far better MPG

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Cactus - it's a decent car. However it's not as good as the Mini and neither should it be, it's in a different market segment and costs much less to buy.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

The gen 1 Countryman started at £16900 or something like that. Easy as anything to spec up though with MINI I got ours to over £26k then negotiated £24k with TLC. Problem is the new Cooper S starts at that and also why would you want a diesel MINI.

That said I had a 5Dr Cooper D at a service and was quite impressed but those rear doors apertures are small!

 

[[TW]Fox]

Problem is the new Cooper S starts at that and also why would you want a diesel MINI.

I mostly agree but we did have a Cooper D for the weekend last year and did about 500 miles in it at an astonishing 65mpg. Very refined once up to speed too - and I'm hugely fussy about refinement as you well know

I expected it to be tedious and nasty, like the previous gen Cooper D, but it wasn't - it was exceptionally refined for a small diesel engine.