Some Advice

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 06:46

Hi,

I haven't been on here in a while as I haven't really had much to do with computers in the last few years.

I do remember you all being really good at advice though, so I thought I would get your opinion on something.

So I have been working at a company for 4 years, it has always been 9-4 Mon-Fri, even though the contract says 37.5 hours and was like this even before I joined. My employer has now realised that this does not equate to 37.5 hours a week and is now asking everyone to work the additional time each week with no additional pay. Is this allowed, seeing as we verbally agreed 9-4 for the wages we are getting, or does the 37.5 hours in the contract override this?

Thank you in advance

Haze · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:02

I think you should pay him for the hours you haven't worked that he has payed you for instead....

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:07

Haze said:
I think you should pay him for the hours you haven't worked that he has payed you for instead....

Love that you assume my employer is a he :rolleyes:

The office is only open 9-4 so they have been aware that staff have only been doing 35 hours a week, and as for owing them time...I do work more than 150 hours a year unpaid overtime at home as my role allows me to do my work at home, but admin staff can only work when the office is open, which obviously it will be open later now to allow for this.

Kill_Phil · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:18

Express terms i.e the contract are usually the go to.

There's plenty of case law around contractual errors and the onus would usually be on the employer to prove it was a genuine error.

To me it seems to a honest mistake and the intention is for you to work 37.5 hours, so I'd count yourself lucky.

It does beggar belief that an employer can't work the contractual hours though

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:20

Kill_Phil said:
Express terms i.e the contract are usually the go to.

There's plenty of case law around contractual errors and the onus would usually be on the employer to prove it was a genuine error.

To me it seems to a honest mistake and the intention is for you to work 37.5 hours, so I'd count yourself lucky.

It does beggar belief that an employer can't work the contractual hours though

Even if for the last 7 years or so the offices were only open 35 hours a week?

Kill_Phil · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:25

paradisiac said:
Even if for the last 7 years or so the offices were only open 35 hours a week?

Well the length of time certainly plays into what's known as custom and practice. If you are truly worried and unhappy you are best starting off with advice from acas and then seek out paid legal advice.

But I always say with these things how do you think it will play out and would it all be worth it especially in the current climate?

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:31

Kill_Phil said:
Well the length of time certainly plays into what's known as custom and practice. If you are truly worried and unhappy you are best starting off with advice from acas and then seek out paid legal advice.

But I always say with these things how do you think it will play out and would it all be worth it especially in the current climate?

For me it's not a massive deal either way as I tend to do way more than 37.5 most weeks as I do a lot of work from home, although with an already low wage it does feel a bit rubbish and like a pay decrease, as we were all told in interview over the time the company has been running the hours are 9-4. Its the admin team that I was more asking advice for as they now have to stay in the office longer on even less pay, wasn't sure if the implied terms,the fact it was verbally said, the office was only open those hours, and it has been going on for so long, over ruled the written terms

Rroff · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:31

I have no idea as to the legal side of it but normally errors like this would be on the employer not the employee unless they could prove otherwise there are potentially problems with custom and practise as mentioned above as well.

Bit of a dick move really by the employer as if the job is getting done they haven't exactly lost out.

EDIT: If they are on low pay, regardless of what might or might not have happened in the past then extra hours may bring them below minimum wage as well.

Kill_Phil · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:35

Rroff said:
I have no idea as to the legal side of it but normally errors like this would be on the employer not he employee unless they could prove otherwise there are potentially problems with custom and practise as mentioned above as well.

Bit of a dick move really by the employer as if the job is getting done they haven't exactly lost out.

Yeah this, the company will lose out long term as employees don't easily forget and will jump ship as soon as the opportunity arises.

Before you/they do legal up, it's worthwhile having an honest chat with the employer and try to understand the sudden shift? It could be they're struggling financially in the current climate

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:38

Kill_Phil said:
Yeah this, the company will lose out long term as employees don't easily forget and will jump ship as soon as the opportunity arises.

Before you/they do legal up, it's worthwhile having an honest chat with the employer and try to understand the sudden shift? It could be they're struggling financially in the current climate

It was only noticed because when 1 employee was asked to work from home they asked if they could do 10-5, this then highlighted it was only 35 hours so everyone was offered the option of doing an extra 30 mins a day or taking a 2.5 hour a week pay cut, that was the only option. Finances are OK as we are taking on a lot of new staff and most current staff work remotely so they are saving thousands a month on travel expenses

Rroff · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:42

Kill_Phil said:
Yeah this, the company will lose out long term as employees don't easily forget and will jump ship as soon as the opportunity arises.

Before you/they do legal up, it's worthwhile having an honest chat with the employer and try to understand the sudden shift? It could be they're struggling financially in the current climate

Where I work for instance unless it was a substantial amount that the employee couldn't possibly mistake for being their expected pay they write off anything more than 1 pay period for overpayment, etc. and likewise if they mess up on hours - beyond 1 week that is on them - though if it is 1 week then they usually try to come to an arrangement. Unfortunately a lot of employers don't work like that though

and don't seem to see that it is better to keep their staff happy and productive over things like this which are realistically not a huge problem for the company.

Haze · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:45

Mind boggles that it took your admin/boss 7 years to work out what 7x5=

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:46

Rroff said:
Where I work for instance unless it was a substantial amount that the employee couldn't possibly mistake for being their expected pay they write off anything more than 1 pay period for overpayment, etc. and likewise if they mess up on hours - beyond 1 week that is on them - though if it is 1 week then they usually try to come to an arrangement. Unfortunately a lot of employers don't work like that though and don't seem to see that it is better to keep their staff happy and productive over things like this which are realistically not a huge problem for the company.

I think this is more the issue than pay etc, like if they are happy to just change this, which 30 mins a day is neither here nor there as jobs are always done, then what else might they change in the future without thought

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:47

Haze said:
Mind boggles that it took your admin/boss 7 years to work out what 7x5=

Completely agree, and is was pointed out to them several times, but they just said those are the hours it's always been so must be right.

Rroff · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:49

Actually I think I misread OP - they are basically asking you to do the intended 37.5 hours for your contracted pay? I don't have a problem with that personally though it would be nice if the employer had a consultation/negotiation and came around to a mutually beneficial set of changes around it.

On first reading I thought they were wanting everyone to work a little longer (beyond 37.5 hours) for free each week until they'd made up for months or years of working short of the 37.5 hours which would be ridiculous.

Custom and practise could really bite them in the behind over this if people collectively used it against them though.

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 07:54

Rroff said:
Actually I think I misread OP - they are basically asking you to do the intended 37.5 hours for your contracted pay? I don't have a problem with that personally though it would be nice if the employer had a consultation/negotiation and came around to a mutually beneficial set of changes around it.

On first reading I thought they were wanting everyone to work a little longer (beyond 37.5 hours) for free each week until they'd made up for months or years of working short of the 37.5 hours which would be ridiculous.

Custom and practise could really bite them in the behind over this if people collectively used it against them though.

Yeh they don't expect people to make up the time from previous years, just starting from Monday they have to do the additional 30 mins, which still isn't correct as everyone in the office gets 30 min unpaid break, so will actually take it from 32.5-35 hours but again, that concept has escaped their grasp

D.P. · 7 Feb 2021 at 08:01

custom and practice might dictate that the interpretation of the current contract should be 9-4pm, and thus there is no legal basis for the employer to seek back overpayment.

However, the employer is not seeking to account bfor the previous error.

What will happen is you will all be offered a new contract woth the new working hours amd a very clear statement that the hours must be 37.5hours.You can then accept the new contract or look for a new job.

Rroff · 7 Feb 2021 at 08:03

D.P. said:
custom and practice might dictate that the interpretation of the current contract should be 9-4pm, and thus there is no legal basis for the employer to seek back overpayment.

However, the employer is not seeking to account bfor the previous error.

What will happen is you will all be offered a new contract woth the new working hours amd a very clear statement that the hours must be 37.5hours.You can then accept the new contract or look for a new job.

It isn't just for overpayment however I suspect your last bit will ultimately be the result of any protracted disagreement - as happens with many jobs when the employer plays the needs of the business card with hour changes.

paradisiac · 7 Feb 2021 at 08:04

D.P. said:
custom and practice might dictate that the interpretation of the current contract should be 9-4pm, and thus there is no legal basis for the employer to seek back overpayment.

However, the employer is not seeking to account bfor the previous error.

What will happen is you will all be offered a new contract woth the new working hours amd a very clear statement that the hours must be 37.5hours.You can then accept the new contract or look for a new job.

Thank you, this is what I thought would be the outcome and what all of you have been saying.

For me it's not a massive issue as I do unpaid overtime anyways, but I think for others it will feel like a pay decrease as more hours for same pay, and can imagine productivity will go down.

Haze · 7 Feb 2021 at 08:40

More hours lol, 30 minutes a day, sounds like you work for and with a load of drips