Some Vista (upgrade) questions... (+ Rant!)

Brook · 3 Jan 2007 at 05:15

I was thinking about buying Windows XP Media Centre with my new rig, and then using the free upgrade to get Vista Premium...

However, I've heard that I can't use the free upgrade unless I am a system builder???? Wha????!!! What do I have to send them? My invoice of all the parts I bought? (MB, HD, Mem, GPU, CPU, Case, DVD) or is it just a scam to get me into buying XP and then telling me to p-off :mad:

DanF · 3 Jan 2007 at 10:18

lol, sorry but why do people assume that they should be able to get media center then upgrade to vista for free when they are only buying a £5 piece of hardware to qualify for the OEM version in the first place? This style of voucher was only available for the OEM copy when installed by a proper system builder on to a complete PC. It's done so that people would continue to buy full PC's without waiting until Vista is out and having an out of date OS within 2 months of purchase. So someone on the net thought wrongly that they could use this loophole to get cheap copies of Vista then shouted about it and now everyone feels miffed off that they can't do it.

Also you don't own the software, MS allow you to use the software under certain conditions on a PC, so if they say that an OEM (original equipment manufacturer) copy can only be used on the original complete PC that it came with then what's wrong with that. The OEM copy is much cheaper than other ways of getting Vista and as a consequence you are only licensed to use it on the original PC that it came with. Seems fair to me, if you intend to install it on other computers or upgrade your computer a lot on a regular basis then you need to buy a version with a license that allows you to do this.

I'm pretty positive that you would have a longer warranty on the xbox360 than 3 months as well. Most electrical equipment bought in the UK is covered by a law which says it should last for 5 years. Can't remember it's name but I know a few people that have used this to replace broken items when 4 years old and deffo out of the normal manufacturers warranty.

Plodicus · 3 Jan 2007 at 10:41

I was under the impression that Microsoft did a U-turn on the idea of only two installations per machine, or I may be wrong but I certainly hope not.

For example the PC gaming community (which Vista is aiming for) moaned as we reformat our machines probably once every 3 or so months and probably upgrade once a year to 18 months.

So there is gonna be lots of people wandering over to consoles if Ol' Billy Boy continues down that path.

DanF · 3 Jan 2007 at 14:16

Well if you do go for an OEM copy and then need to change a lot of hardware you can call them up and they will usually let you off, just say the mobo blew up.

If you get an upgrade or full retail then you should be able to do the usual 10ish installs from the 1 key, if you run out give them a call and they should give you a new key. Don't hold me to it though

Caged · 3 Jan 2007 at 14:22

Brook said:
I have a good mind to go OSX or Linux if any of this is true.... is it?

I guarantee you that even if everything you said was true (which it isn't), that you won't use Linux or Mac OS. Nobody who threatens this ever does, and Microsoft don't really care anyway.

Burnsy2023 · 3 Jan 2007 at 14:34

DanF said:
Well if you do go for an OEM copy and then need to change a lot of hardware you can call them up and they will usually let you off, just say the mobo blew up.

If you get an upgrade or full retail then you should be able to do the usual 10ish installs from the 1 key, if you run out give them a call and they should give you a new key. Don't hold me to it though

If you have a retail copy then automatic online activation will fail after a certain amount of attempts, but if you phone them up, they will give you an activation code (not a new product key).

And I won't comment about lying to MS.

DanF said:
I'm pretty positive that you would have a longer warranty on the xbox360 than 3 months as well. Most electrical equipment bought in the UK is covered by a law which says it should last for 5 years. Can't remember it's name but I know a few people that have used this to replace broken items when 4 years old and deffo out of the normal manufacturers warranty.

There is no such law, however, if the fault is inherant you are covered under the sale of goods act, but your on rocky grounds prooving that when you've had it for so long. Some retailers will refund, some won't.

Burnsy

OzyOly · 3 Jan 2007 at 14:41

DanF said:
Most electrical equipment bought in the UK is covered by a law which says it should last for 5 years. Can't remember it's name but I know a few people that have used this to replace broken items when 4 years old and deffo out of the normal manufacturers warranty.

I think it is 12 months on certain electrical products that guarantee the product from faults arising during normal use due to a defect from manufacturing. If a fault should present itself then you are entitled to an exchange or repair that must be completed in reasonable time, not a refund though.

If the product is fault at the time of purchase then you have 4 years (5 years in scotland) in which you are entitled to a refund, however you must be able to prove it was faulty at the time which is very hard to do and in most cases you will not even get a repair.

Brook · 3 Jan 2007 at 15:56

When you buy a PC - whether it be dell, mesh, hp, whoever, they never tell you you can't upgrade the friggin thing! That goes against the whole point of a PC... ie, it's upgradeable!

I think it's M$ just trying to exert too much control - as far as I am concerned I'll get the oem version as I am building a system from scratch, and if I do get any problems in future I will pursue the matter in court.

They have no right to tell you you have to be stuck with an outdated PC when you can easily upgrade them - any court of law would find that unacceptable, in this country if a contract is deemed unfair it is void.

With regards to the 5 year law, Dan isn't far off - I think it is mostly open to interpretation on the day, but one year is the absolute minimum for electrical goods, and more expensive items I would say are 'expected' to last longer - 5 years is not unreasonable for an expensive TV.

If any of you have xbox 360 games, have a look at the inside sleeve and read M$ try to limit their warranty to about 90 days!!! Don't fall for it, you have every right to return it to the retailer if it becomes faulty within at least a year!! (Confirmed by trading standards)

With regards to other OS's I am already learning Linux (server) and will be getting into it a lot more when the PS3 comes out. I'll also make my next PC dual boot. We also have Apple Macs here at work, so I may start spending a bit more time with them - there's no doubt OSX is a superior OS, the only drawback is software (or lack of).

Burnsy2023 · 3 Jan 2007 at 16:03

Brook said:
I think it's M$ just trying to exert too much control - as far as I am concerned I'll get the oem version as I am building a system from scratch, and if I do get any problems in future I will pursue the matter in court.

They have no right to tell you you have to be stuck with an outdated PC when you can easily upgrade them - any court of law would find that unacceptable, in this country if a contract is deemed unfair it is void.

I'd be very interested if you did goto court over it.

MS aren't saying that you can't upgrade as such. You can upgrade pretty much anything bar the case (if it have the COA attached) or the motherboard; and this is because of one fundamental reason: the OEM licence is non-transferable from machine to machine. But MS needed to define what a 'machine' is, and they have said the motherboard as it is the main part of the machine.

The transferability of OEM licences has had a lot of discussion over whether it's enforcable, but for slightly different reasons, TBH I doubt you'd win the case, but I'd like to follow such as case closely.

Burnsy

DanF · 3 Jan 2007 at 16:13

Brook said:
I think it's M$ just trying to exert too much control - as far as I am concerned I'll get the oem version as I am building a system from scratch, and if I do get any problems in future I will pursue the matter in court.

Sorry for the rant, wasn't really aimed at you more all the comments lately of buying media center oem now purely as a means to get full Vista at a reduced rate via the voucher offer as quite a few people will be disappointed when they try.

I highly doubt you'll get any trouble if you phone them up and explain the situation over the phone. From past experience they always seem very reasonable as long as your not doing anything obviously wrong.

Brook · 3 Jan 2007 at 16:19

burnsy2023 said:
I'd be very interested if you did goto court over it.

MS aren't saying that you can't upgrade as such. You can upgrade pretty much anything bar the case (if it have the COA attached) or the motherboard; and this is because of one fundamental reason: the OEM licence is non-transferable from machine to machine. But MS needed to define what a 'machine' is, and they have said the motherboard as it is the main part of the machine.

The transferability of OEM licences has had a lot of discussion over whether it's enforcable, but for slightly different reasons, TBH I doubt you'd win the case, but I'd like to follow such as case closely.

Burnsy

I think the court would interpret it as whether the copy was being run on one machine or not - which is I guess (and they would assume), the whole point of those measures i.e. to stop it being used on multiple machines.

Which is fair.

What is not fair is to prevent people using it legitimately on one machine if they choose to upgrade any of its components, whether that be the MB, HD, GPU, CPU etc.

So long as no one runs two (or more) instances of the software - they should 'expect' to be fine. And I believe that is what the courts would see as fair and acceptable.

TBH, M$ wouldn't even want the case to go to court, the publicity would perpetuate the feeling, and the more people who feel the same, the more outcries, the less chance M$ has of getting away with it for much longer.

Remember, things are always meant to be 'fair' for the consumer and the courts and laws ultimately have to reflect that.

Brook · 3 Jan 2007 at 16:21

DanF said:
Sorry for the rant, wasn't really aimed at you more all the comments lately of buying media center oem now purely as a means to get full Vista at a reduced rate via the voucher offer as quite a few people will be disappointed when they try.

I highly doubt you'll get any trouble if you phone them up and explain the situation over the phone. From past experience they always seem very reasonable as long as your not doing anything obviously wrong.

No probs

I thought the upgrade path once you pay £8 postage worked out more expensive anyway? :-/

Burnsy2023 · 3 Jan 2007 at 16:32

Brook said:
I think the court would interpret it as whether the copy was being run on one machine or not - which is I guess (and they would assume), the whole point of those measures i.e. to stop it being used on multiple machines.

Not necessarily multiple machines, but different machines. You are licenced for one machine only and MS need to be able to say when a machine is no longer a machine (I accept that makes no sense but I hope you get the point)

If you want a concurrent licence (one machine at a time), thats exaclty what the retail licence allows. Remember, Miscoroft don't intend for consumers to buy a OEM licence of Windows on it's own, only with a new PC.

And your very right about MS not taking this to court, it would be a PR nightmare and so I doubt anyone will get trouble, but it's always possible.

Burnsy

Brook · 3 Jan 2007 at 16:54

burnsy2023 said:
Not necessarily multiple machines, but different machines. You are licenced for one machine only and MS need to be able to say when a machine is no longer a machine (I accept that makes no sense but I hope you get the point)

But upgrading the machine doesn't mean its no longer the same machine.

I think it would be a nightmare for them trying to justify why people who buy a PC cannot upgrade it (which is essentialy what they'd be saying if they refused reactivation).. and you're right it would be a bit of a PR disaster. So I agree with you, I doubt they would refuse the reactivation.

Burnsy2023 · 3 Jan 2007 at 17:15

Brook said:
But upgrading the machine doesn't mean its no longer the same machine.

What if you upgraded the Case, Motherboard, processor, HDD, DVD, RAM, GFX and PSU? Is it a new PC?

Burnsy

OzyOly · 3 Jan 2007 at 17:17

burnsy2023 said:
What if you upgraded the Case, Motherboard, processor, HDD, DVD, RAM, GFX and PSU? Is it a new PC?

Burnsy

It is if you keep the powercable and cold cathodes.

Rebelius · 3 Jan 2007 at 17:29

Brook said:
But upgrading the machine doesn't mean its no longer the same machine.

I think it would be a nightmare for them trying to justify why people who buy a PC cannot upgrade it (which is essentialy what they'd be saying if they refused reactivation).. and you're right it would be a bit of a PR disaster. So I agree with you, I doubt they would refuse the reactivation.

you seem to be missing the point of the OEM license - you get the OS half price because you're not allowed to change the motherboard or case.

sounds fair to me.

DanF · 3 Jan 2007 at 17:34

Brook said:
With regards to the 5 year law, Dan isn't far off - I think it is mostly open to interpretation on the day, but one year is the absolute minimum for electrical goods, and more expensive items I would say are 'expected' to last longer - 5 years is not unreasonable for an expensive TV.

Quick snip from the BBC Sales of good act 1979 ammended

Satisfactory quality covers minor and cosmetic defects as well as substantial problems. It also means that products must last a reasonable time. But it doesn't give you any rights if a fault was obvious or pointed out to you at point of sale.

Make sure to keep all boxes receipts etc, certain high street chains selling consumer electronic goods will almost always refund instead of going to court on mention of this.

Slam62 · 3 Jan 2007 at 17:47

Umm re sale of goods, it has been explained on many different consumer programs that under uk law goods have to last a reasonable time and this can be way beyond the one year warranty. i.e. you wouldnt buy a washing machine expecting it to last one year would you. The sad fact is though that uk consumers never enforce these rights and hence the shops get away with it. Indeed even the consumer progs had a lot of trouble persuading the retailers.

Brook · 3 Jan 2007 at 17:54

burnsy2023 said:
What if you upgraded the Case, Motherboard, processor, HDD, DVD, RAM, GFX and PSU? Is it a new PC?

Burnsy

If they do the upgrade over a period of time then I see them as upgrades. Tbh, I think you can 'transfer' your copy of windows anyway, my nephew just sold his laptop (which he put xp pro on) so reverted it back to factory OS (dell) when he sold it, then put the XP pro on his desktop - he got it reactivated via phone. I'm not sure of the details of this as he only mentioned it in passing and not sure whether it was the OEM or retail version he has.

The way I see it, if I have a paid-for copy of a piece of software I should be allowed to use it for ONE pc. And I think most people would accept that is fair.

If people want to pirate a copy of windows they just need to download a hack or a hacked version - so the only people they are hurting by these ridiculous rules are the law abiding citizens.

With regards to the price difference Rebelius mentioned - this is purely for self-interest. If they didn't offer a cheaper version, chances are system builders would find Linux more attarctive because otherwise their systems would be overpriced for what people want to pay. Would people go out an buy a £499 pc and find they are paying almost a third just for windows?.... I doubt it.

Dan (edited to add: and Slam62) - you guys are right, this is taken of the trading standards website

:

Q. I bought a fridge/freezer about eighteen months ago, and the freezer section has completely failed. I went back to the shop, but they refused to do anything as it was outside the original twelve-month guarantee. What are my rights?

A. If the time limit has expired on the guarantee then you have no claim under the guarantee. However, if you can show that the goods were not of satisfactory quality at the time of sale i.e. they were not as durable as it is reasonable to expect, then you may have a claim against the trader or finance company (if applicable) for compensation under the Sale of Goods Act.