Sorround sound upgrade options from a old Yamaha set

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I have a old Yamaha set Ive had since buying my first AVR back in 2011. I can't remember the model but they where on the low end (got the speakers and a entry level AVR for £350 at the time) and kinda look like the Yamaha NSP41 set but abit more boxy looking.

Anyways I'm looking for a upgrade but not wanting to break the bank completely between the £350 to £500 range (if there really good) the only option I can see really are the Wharfedale DX2 package but would this offer a suitable jump in quality over what I have ?

Or am I better off slowly building up a separate package as and when I can afford them like Monitor Audio bronze etc ?

my current Amp is the Yamaha RX-483

Thanks in advance
 
Do the latter buy the minimum number of items now and get bits as you go along.

Ie get a avr and main speakers for now then later on rears, sides and sub

Sorry for the late reply

Thanks for the advice, I have a AVR im happy with, when you say get mains do you mean Centre as well as Fronts, Would Monitor Bronzes (centre and Bronze be a nice upgrade ? and then get FX's and the sub later ? I Kinda like things to match so any other speaker ranges you recommend ?

I don't know much about home cinema audio at this end.
 
How big is your room?

Make a system around Dali Zensor Pico's new or used.

Lot of performance for the money. Decent 5.1 starts at £800 really IMO.

Or look at Qacoustics entry level stuff.
 
Don't waste your money on 5.1 system in that budget.

Please expand, I have a 12 year old £150 5.1 system on my TV for surround.. I could spend £1000 on a new system but I'd rather spend £300..

Is there a sweet spot? Would I (as a non audio person) tell the difference between my old £150 system and a 300 or 1000 system..

Room is about 18 by 12 foot
 
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Please expand, I have a 12 year old £150 5.1 system on my TV for surround.. I could spend £1000 on a new system but I'd rather spend £300..

Is there a sweet spot? Would I (as a non audio person) tell the difference between my old £150 system and a 300 or 1000 system..

Room is about 18 by 12 foot

Wine. It's said that in a £5 bottle of wine there's about 35 pence-worth of the thing you're actually buying it for. The other £4.65 covers packaging and some profit for the producer, plus shipping costs and middlemen margins and duty and tax. The point is that with any product, there's a minimum threshold of cost to get over before the extra money you're spending starts to pay off in better quality. It's a similar thing with speakers.

The £150 you spent 10 years ago was like the £5 bottle of wine. Most of what you spent went in to just covering the basics of 5 reasonable-for-movie-performance satellite speakers and a sub that could produce a bit of rumble. Don't get me wrong; it was still an order of magnitude better than the speakers in the sort of Samsung/LG/Panasonic/Sony all-in-one DVD/BD home cinema kit, so you made the right choice for your money if £150 was the maximum budget.

Accounting for inflation, the £150 you spent then is the equivalent of £190 in today's market. What that means then, to stand still, you'd be looking at spending £190-£200 on today's Yamaha NS-P41 kit. That works out pretty well because it's forerunner was the NS-P40 kit from 2012 which sold for around £140-£150.

The question then is whether you'd notice a difference spending an extra £100 on something better compared to the NS-P41. In my view you would, but it won't be a sonic revelation.

The Elac Cinema 5.2 kit is £300. You get a bigger and more powerful sub, and the centre and satellites have dual drivers (tweeters and woofers) rather than the single full-range drivers in the Yamahas. What you'd notice is a bit more definition and volume from the sub, and additional detail and extra precision from the centre and surrounds. As a complete package, it would sound a little more composed when things get busy.

The acid test with any system though is music. This is where it would become obvious you're listening to an AV speaker kit trying to do music rather than a music speaker kit doing movies. In general, when speakers do music well, movies are a piece of cake. It doesn't work the other way round.

The Wharfedale kit is better again, but it's still movie speakers. Coming at this from the other end, Monitor Audio's Bronze 2 (Br2) are Hi-Fi speakers that also do well for movies. In the same vein you have Dali Spektor 2, Wharfedale Diamond 220, Mission LX2.

The Monitor Audio Br2 and the BX2 before them are big by bookshelf speaker standards. The 6.5" bass drivers plus cabinet size and bass porting means that they put out quite a lot of bass compared to their peers. My guess is that with a pair of these you could retire your sub because it would be outclassed. They're exciting to listen to as well. There's a lot of drive and energy in the sound.

Before we get too carried away though, I'd temper that by saying that they do need a bit of space around them if they're to avoid sounding boomy. These are not speakers that would live well stuffed in to the corners of a room. Also, the top end is a little forward. It's not harsh, but you wouldn't want to partner these speakers with a thin-sounding AV receiver. Fortunately your Yamaha is fairly neutral. A couple of big plusses in my book are that the BR2 and BX2 are both 8 Ohm speakers rather than 6 Ohm, and they've a higher efficiency than most of the their rivals.

Efficiency is fairly easy to understand. It's how much sound the speakers get from each Watt of power. Many bookshelf speakers are 84-86dB. A few are 88dB. The BR2/BX2 are 90dB. Compared to a speaker at 84dB, the MAs would sound perceptibly louder. More importantly though, the amplifier wouldn't need to work so hard to produce a decent listening level.

The Impedance in Ohms is a little trickier to get your head around, but it's worth the effort.

The classic way of thinking about Ohms is resistance. The more Ohms the bigger the resistance and so the harder it is to push power through that part of a circuit. When it comes to speakers and amplifiers though, the relationship is slightly different. The amp isn't pushing power, it's the speaker drawing power from the amp. The lower the resistance of the speaker the closer it look to being a short circuit. That's the point where components fry and flash and a bang and a little puff of magic smoke escapes, then silence.

Having an 8 Ohm speaker rather than a 6 Ohm speaker gives the amplifier an easier time because it draws less current, and that means less stress on the amp circuits. This is all a gross simplification because there are quite a few other factors involved, but it will do for a quick and dirty explanation.

So, how would these sound compared to say the Wharfedales?

Bigger, more dynamic, better able to resolve all the individual threads of what's going on within a film soundtrack or piece of music. Better composed at higher volumes. They'll fill a large room more convincingly, and you'll be able to listen to them for longer without fatigue. These are the reasons why you've seen suggestions about building up in pieces as money allows rather than blowing a smaller budget all at once on a complete kit.

Buy the BR2 and Bronze Centre speaker as a set. They'll give you a cohesive and matched sound field across the front of the room. Add a sub and the dipole FX surround speakers at a later date.

Are there any worthwhile alternatives?

Sure. Where space is a bit tighter and you don't mind keeping the existing sub for a while then the Dali Spektor 2 (£199/pr) are well worth a look. Sonically they're a bit sweeter sounding but being quite a bit smaller they don't pack the bass wallop. Buy with the Spektor 2 Vokal centre speaker at £170.

Mission LX2 @ £149 (with LXC centre @ £129) is another good shout. The Wharfedale Diamond 220 are really good value at £99/pr and work well as music speakers. Add the Diamond 11CC centre speaker at £149.

People will mention Q Acoustics and there's a lot of love for them in the forums. There are a lot of models too, with some names being very close to one another. Two close siblings are the 3010 (£89/pr) and the 3010i at £129. The 'i' is the newer replacement and it is physically bigger and does perform better. I think you'd need to hear them to decide for yourself if they're a contender.

Hope this all help :)
 
Is Dali spektor the new pico-sized /small speaker range?

I think Zensor Pico is close enough to Spektor 1 to be considered the same. Spektor 2 is marginally bigger. What's missing in the Spektor bookshelf range is an equivalent to the Zensor 3.
 
Wine. It's said that in a £5 bottle of wine there's about 35 pence-worth of the thing you're actually buying it for. The other £4.65 covers packaging and some profit for the producer, plus shipping costs and middlemen margins and duty and tax. The point is that with any product, there's a minimum threshold of cost to get over before the extra money you're spending starts to pay off in better quality. It's a similar thing with speakers.

The £150 you spent 10 years ago was like the £5 bottle of wine. Most of what you spent went in to just covering the basics of 5 reasonable-for-movie-performance satellite speakers and a sub that could produce a bit of rumble. Don't get me wrong; it was still an order of magnitude better than the speakers in the sort of Samsung/LG/Panasonic/Sony all-in-one DVD/BD home cinema kit, so you made the right choice for your money if £150 was the maximum budget.

Accounting for inflation, the £150 you spent then is the equivalent of £190 in today's market. What that means then, to stand still, you'd be looking at spending £190-£200 on today's Yamaha NS-P41 kit. That works out pretty well because it's forerunner was the NS-P40 kit from 2012 which sold for around £140-£150.

The question then is whether you'd notice a difference spending an extra £100 on something better compared to the NS-P41. In my view you would, but it won't be a sonic revelation.

The Elac Cinema 5.2 kit is £300. You get a bigger and more powerful sub, and the centre and satellites have dual drivers (tweeters and woofers) rather than the single full-range drivers in the Yamahas. What you'd notice is a bit more definition and volume from the sub, and additional detail and extra precision from the centre and surrounds. As a complete package, it would sound a little more composed when things get busy.

The acid test with any system though is music. This is where it would become obvious you're listening to an AV speaker kit trying to do music rather than a music speaker kit doing movies. In general, when speakers do music well, movies are a piece of cake. It doesn't work the other way round.

The Wharfedale kit is better again, but it's still movie speakers. Coming at this from the other end, Monitor Audio's Bronze 2 (Br2) are Hi-Fi speakers that also do well for movies. In the same vein you have Dali Spektor 2, Wharfedale Diamond 220, Mission LX2.

The Monitor Audio Br2 and the BX2 before them are big by bookshelf speaker standards. The 6.5" bass drivers plus cabinet size and bass porting means that they put out quite a lot of bass compared to their peers. My guess is that with a pair of these you could retire your sub because it would be outclassed. They're exciting to listen to as well. There's a lot of drive and energy in the sound.

Before we get too carried away though, I'd temper that by saying that they do need a bit of space around them if they're to avoid sounding boomy. These are not speakers that would live well stuffed in to the corners of a room. Also, the top end is a little forward. It's not harsh, but you wouldn't want to partner these speakers with a thin-sounding AV receiver. Fortunately your Yamaha is fairly neutral. A couple of big plusses in my book are that the BR2 and BX2 are both 8 Ohm speakers rather than 6 Ohm, and they've a higher efficiency than most of the their rivals.

Efficiency is fairly easy to understand. It's how much sound the speakers get from each Watt of power. Many bookshelf speakers are 84-86dB. A few are 88dB. The BR2/BX2 are 90dB. Compared to a speaker at 84dB, the MAs would sound perceptibly louder. More importantly though, the amplifier wouldn't need to work so hard to produce a decent listening level.

The Impedance in Ohms is a little trickier to get your head around, but it's worth the effort.

The classic way of thinking about Ohms is resistance. The more Ohms the bigger the resistance and so the harder it is to push power through that part of a circuit. When it comes to speakers and amplifiers though, the relationship is slightly different. The amp isn't pushing power, it's the speaker drawing power from the amp. The lower the resistance of the speaker the closer it look to being a short circuit. That's the point where components fry and flash and a bang and a little puff of magic smoke escapes, then silence.

Having an 8 Ohm speaker rather than a 6 Ohm speaker gives the amplifier an easier time because it draws less current, and that means less stress on the amp circuits. This is all a gross simplification because there are quite a few other factors involved, but it will do for a quick and dirty explanation.

So, how would these sound compared to say the Wharfedales?

Bigger, more dynamic, better able to resolve all the individual threads of what's going on within a film soundtrack or piece of music. Better composed at higher volumes. They'll fill a large room more convincingly, and you'll be able to listen to them for longer without fatigue. These are the reasons why you've seen suggestions about building up in pieces as money allows rather than blowing a smaller budget all at once on a complete kit.

Buy the BR2 and Bronze Centre speaker as a set. They'll give you a cohesive and matched sound field across the front of the room. Add a sub and the dipole FX surround speakers at a later date.

Are there any worthwhile alternatives?

Sure. Where space is a bit tighter and you don't mind keeping the existing sub for a while then the Dali Spektor 2 (£199/pr) are well worth a look. Sonically they're a bit sweeter sounding but being quite a bit smaller they don't pack the bass wallop. Buy with the Spektor 2 Vokal centre speaker at £170.

Mission LX2 @ £149 (with LXC centre @ £129) is another good shout. The Wharfedale Diamond 220 are really good value at £99/pr and work well as music speakers. Add the Diamond 11CC centre speaker at £149.

People will mention Q Acoustics and there's a lot of love for them in the forums. There are a lot of models too, with some names being very close to one another. Two close siblings are the 3010 (£89/pr) and the 3010i at £129. The 'i' is the newer replacement and it is physically bigger and does perform better. I think you'd need to hear them to decide for yourself if they're a contender.

Hope this all help :)

thanks for the info thats great, so i could just hook these speakers up to my el-cheapo Panasonic sa-pt460 amp, or is there a better go to basic Amp - it will only really be used for TV / occasional music
 
thanks for the info thats great, so i could just hook these speakers up to my el-cheapo Panasonic sa-pt460 amp, or is there a better go to basic Amp - it will only really be used for TV / occasional music

Technically, yes. But oh dear God, no. Just no.

The Panasonic isn't fit for purpose in a number of respects. For a start, there's no dedicated subwoofer output socket. Instead, the set is designed to work with a passive sub; this is basically a bigger speaker in a box. More specifically though it is designed to run only with its dedicated partnering speakers. A lot of people will think that this is to do with the impedance ratings (3 Ohms from the amp), but that's not the main part of it. There's a much bigger problem; it's the crossover frequencies.

You see, with a proper AV receiver it's possible to specify what portion of the sound goes to each main channel speaker and what goes to the sub. Where you might be running larger speakers such as the BX2/BR2 at the front but no sub, then you could set the range to Large (full range) so that the speaker gets everything from 20Hz up to 20kHz. Same with the centre and the surrounds.

With the Panasonic though, the crossover frequencies for each channel are set to work with its supplied speaker package only, so there's no option to change them. What's more, the speakers for the Panasonic kit suck. The given specs quote 120Hz @ -10dB, and that means the real world performance is even worse. Connect some full range speakers to the outputs and I wouldn't be surprised if there's hardly any bass.

Next comes the quality of the drive electronics. The supplied speakers aren't great at detail resolution, so why waste money on good electronics? Panasonic, just like all the HTiB manufacturers, will save money where they can because they know that the market is (or was) competitive on price and features but not so fussed on quality. This means that when you put better speakers on to the kit, all they do is shine a light directly on the lo-Fi performance of the amp.


If all you want is a bit of TV and occassionally some music, just buy a really good sound bar. Grab one of the last Yamaha YSP2700 sound bars while they're on clearance. You'll get all of the audio formats apart from ATMOS, so you're covered for TV, DVD, Blu-ray and 4K. There's also 4K pass-through, 3 HDMIs inc ARC, Optical, Coax and analogue inputs, Bluetooth, AirPlay, streaming, and the 2700 also supports Yamaha's multi-room music feature called MusicCast. Peter Tyson has these at £449 while stocks last. Richers have run out.

Where you have a serious interest in music, a cheap AV receiver - even a new one - won't cut it. Your other options then should be either a stereo amp with Optical in and a pair of Bronze 2 speakers, or the speakers you plan plus a decent AV receiver (£400-£500 for the amp) or going for an older AV receiver that's still good with music but perhaps misses out on the latest audio features.
 
If all you want is a bit of TV and occassionally some music, just buy a really good sound bar. Grab one of the last Yamaha YSP2700 sound bars while they're on clearance. You'll get all of the audio formats apart from ATMOS, so you're covered for TV, DVD, Blu-ray and 4K. There's also 4K pass-through, 3 HDMIs inc ARC, Optical, Coax and analogue inputs, Bluetooth, AirPlay, streaming, and the 2700 also supports Yamaha's multi-room music feature called MusicCast. Peter Tyson has these at £449 while stocks last. Richers have run out.

.

ok so I was 100% decided to go get the Yamaha YSP2700 (as you recommended), I checked out some reviews, some say it cannot replace true surround while others says its close enough.. that got me thinking (especially since music is really an after thought and not so important)

If I decided to spend £700/£800 on a 5.1 amp + some speakers (not wanting to spend much more than 800 total) would there be a significant improvement? if so is there a go to 5.1 AMP that I should look at (then I can use your previous info to select some speakers)

or should I just drop £400 on the Yamaha?

(rather a subjective question I know)
 
£800 on amp and speakers is pushing it, to get the best sound get fewer speakers for now with a av amp, also get more power rather than budget model. Ie rather than ,£150 get £350 avr

Ie rather than 5.1 get 2.1, 3.1, 4.0 and get remaining speakers and sub later
 
If you don't mind going second hand and want the simplicity of a soundbar setup with rears, you can pick up the Samsung HW-N950 for <£600
 
ok so I was 100% decided to go get the Yamaha YSP2700 (as you recommended), I checked out some reviews, some say it cannot replace true surround while others says its close enough.. that got me thinking (especially since music is really an after thought and not so important)

If I decided to spend £700/£800 on a 5.1 amp + some speakers (not wanting to spend much more than 800 total) would there be a significant improvement? if so is there a go to 5.1 AMP that I should look at (then I can use your previous info to select some speakers)

or should I just drop £400 on the Yamaha?

(rather a subjective question I know)

Virtual surround using the walls as a reflector to bounce off the sound from speakers comes in a few different flavours. With cheaper sound bars, the speakers for surround just fire somewhere in to the room and hope for the best that a bit of that sound reaches you. The Yamaha sound bars with Intellibeam are far clever. The soundbar has lots of drivers, and the ability to steer sound to a specific spot to create very convincing virtual speaker points.

I've been in rooms where you'd swear there were speakers on the walls for surround. The rooms tended to be uncluttered, and the speaker placed at the midpoint of a wall. The rooms where it's less successful have a corner position for the speaker and lots of soft furnishings and things such as bookcases or shelves or windows and doorways just where the sound needs to bounce from. The results then are very room-dependent, that's why the reviews are mixed.

Can it replace surround sound with proper rear speakers in every room? No, because not every room is ideal for it.

If you want pinpoint surround effects then get a system with proper rear speakers. It's as simple as that really. Where you're looking for good sound up front but the priority is saving space and keeping the budget low then I think there's a lot to like about the YSP2700 and its higher stable mates.

Within this limited group...

Yamaha RX-V585 (£329) + Wharfedale DX2 (£429) Movies: 4 out of 5 Music: 4 out of 5

Sony STR-DN1080 (£429) + Elac Cinema 5.2 (£299) Movies: 5 out of 5 Music: 3 out of 5

Sony STR-DN1080 (£429) + + Wharfedale DX2 (£429) Movies: 5 out of 5 Music: 5 out of 5
 
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