South Africa

Priapus

Priapus

Priapus

Soldato
Joined
30 Jul 2004
Posts
10,564
Location
East Sussex, United Kingdom
It was requested (@Diddums ) that I start a separate thread as I (accidentally) derailed another thread slightly (My bad)

Some background before we get into the discussion about the country.

I'm South African; I was born in South Africa and currently stay here. When I was around ±11 - my parents moved to the UK and there I attended school and spent roughly 5/6 years in the country. It was during that time I met my now wife - who was born in the UK (That's a different story for another day, perhaps - its long - about 20 years)

We visit the UK every year just about to see family now. Will be there again in two weeks time for July.

When I was 16, I decided I had to return to SA for some reason - this was 2006 or there about - roughly when I stopped using these forums.

So, the derailment of the other thread started when I asked about something local that happened and I suspect "everyone knew about it" in the UK - so I put up a disclaimer that I am asking because I don't stay in the UK (Yet) - which prompted a whole discussion about why I should not be moving to UK because "its a disaster" and such.

The reason for my move back to the UK is to be closer to family and our son needs to grow up round family (Also, he has a better future there, than here in SA)

I found it rather amusing that people were quick to point out how crap the UK is and that I should not move; it had me wondering if people in the UK knew enough about life in South Africa - to what extent does the BBC and other media outlets cover the country's issues?

To name a few:

- Highest unemployment in the world (Around 40%- vs UK at 3.7%)
- Poor education system
- Some of the highest crime rate - and violent, senseless crime
- Rapidly failing infrastructure
- Power outages on and off since 2008 - last 8 months, it was every day up to 10hrs a day
- Police service non-existent - calling the police if someone broke into your house is pointless. You might get through to someone, if you do, you hope they understand what you are saying - and then you hope someone might come out.

And many other issues.

I guess, the point I am making, is that yes, the UK has it's issues and yes life isn't perfect there - but it's a lot better than a lot of places in the world and to say "Oh at least we are better than SA, such a low bar" just tells me people have no idea, which is fair enough I guess.

I don't ask for much and once we move to the UK I look forward simple, every day thing, like walking along a beach front or in a park somewhere with my family and not worry about getting shot or mugged. I look forward to being able to drive around and not worry about making sure all windows and doors in the car is locked and I look forward to not worrying every time my wife leaves the house with our son, that they don't get hijacked or mugged or worse.

Also, I understand where the British are coming from when they say it's **** in the UK; but it's all about perspective in the end.

Some of you had questions that I could not answer and stories to tell; this is the point of the thread. Ask here and I can answer (As well as other South Africans on these forums)

I hope this is the right section of the forums - maybe Speakers corner? I wasn't sure.
 
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UK is better that SA - that is obvious, but the UK is declining rapidly.

I travelled through Germany and France and was gob smacked at how it had changed when i was there many years previously. Immigrants lined the streets in Paris, sleeping rough etc - scams, muggings etc and then i look at the UK and the flood of similar people. It won't be long until we suffer the same fate and the UK becomes more of a toilet than it already is.

This little island and its resources can only last so long and some are happy to take, take, take until there is nothing left:(

Disclaimer: I'm not immigrant bashing, i'm all for legal immigration.
 
I laugh at what people in the U.K. consider a disaster. I mean it’s fair because it means they’ve grown up/lived in a very healthy system, so where it is now to what it used to be is a shift.

On the flip side, even the current U.K. is a significant improvement over current SA (except weather and housing).
 
ivrytwr3 said:
UK is better that SA - that is obvious, but the UK is declining rapidly.
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In what ways is it declining rapidly?

Mesai said:
I laugh at what people in the U.K. consider a disaster. I mean it’s fair because it means they’ve grown up/lived in a very healthy system, so where it is now to what it used to be is a shift.

On the flip side, even the current U.K. is a significant improvement over current SA (except weather and housing).
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Yeah, it a fair point if you've lived in one place all your life and can see the change and consider it a disaster. Yes, weather in SA is amazing and housing isn't an issue - if you happened to be employed and happen to earn enough money. The youth suffer the worse, especially if you're the wrong skin color.

My sister in-law in the UK, has changed jobs about three or four times now in the last 6 months. She's young and figures "I don't like this job - will get another"

I laughed when my wife told me this; here in SA - she'd have to hope she finds a job at a young age and then hold on it to for dear life.
 
Priapus said:
Yeah, it a fair point if you've lived in one place all your life and can see the change and consider it a disaster. Yes, weather in SA is amazing and housing isn't an issue - if you happened to be employed and happen to earn enough money. The youth suffer the worse, especially if you're the wrong skin color.

My sister in-law in the UK, has changed jobs about three or four times now in the last 6 months. She's young and figures "I don't like this job - will get another"

I laughed when my wife told me this; here in SA - she'd have to hope she finds a job at a young age and then hold on it to for dear life.
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I am thankfully in IT so getting a job there wasn’t an issue, but your options are very limited as it’s mostly with the main big companies.

Much more variety this side. Can swap and change quite easily. Definitely a broader and healthier market.

It’s easy to keep a standard of living in SA with a decent income, but my fear has always been of an impending d-day, like if the entire power grid finally gave up.

The U.K. is a great place to live but it’s sad to see the current trajectory. Very similar fear mongering used to get voters, as with the ANC, and those are usually the people who suffer the most.
 
Priapus said:
I found it rather amusing that people were quick to point out how crap the UK is and that I should not move
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Yea but as I recall in that thread that was before it was known you are in South Africa.

Following that I don't think anyone made out the UK is worse, plus I think the issues in South Africa are generally well known.

I'm not dismissing this thread, sure it'll be a good discussion, but just clearing that bit up :)
 
Why are you saying i 'vented'? It was a factual statement, please don't turn this into something it is not.

There is an issue with illegal immigration in the UK and i merely said there is potential that the UK ends up in a similar state to the streets of Paris. Factual and comparable.

I'll bow out now.
 
Mesai said:
I am thankfully in IT so getting a job there wasn’t an issue, but your options are very limited as it’s mostly with the main big companies.

Much more variety this side. Can swap and change quite easily. Definitely a broader and healthier market.

It’s easy to keep a standard of living in SA with a decent income, but my fear has always been of an impending d-day, like if the entire power grid finally gave up.

The U.K. is a great place to live but it’s sad to see the current trajectory. Very similar fear mongering used to get voters, as with the ANC, and those are usually the people who suffer the most.
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Yes, if you're in IT - you might get somewhere. I myself am an iOS developer and finding a job is easy. But for my son when he is at working age? Doubt. Wrong skin color.
You have to be in the right area in IT - as in, if you're someone who "just" fixes computers - the market is saturated with supply. So good luck and wages are very low.

The bigger issue of course, as I said is the youth not having opportunities ands jobs. We have more people dependant on the state, than there are tax payers. I think there are like 20m tax payers (Earning enough to pay tax) and 40m on grants... it's not sustainable.

Regarding the power - the whole grid did not give up. We just do not have enough generation capacity. Demand is 30GW and until recently, we were lucky to generate more than 22GW on a given day. The reasons for this is corruption, mismanagement, lack of skills, etc, etc.

You're right though; I am tired of worrying about what the next thing will be dragging this place down - tired of worrying about the future to this degree. As I have mentioned, yes the UK is not perfect - but its hard to argue that its anywhere near SA and will probably never get to the point where people are scared to walk outside alone during the day or night.

BUDFORCE said:
Yea but as I recall in that thread that was before it was known you are in South Africa.

Following that I don't think anyone made out the UK is worse, plus I think the issues in South Africa are generally well known.

I'm not dismissing this thread, sure it'll be a good discussion, but just clearing that bit up :)
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Fair point.
 
ivrytwr3 said:
Why are you saying i 'vented'? It was a factual statement, please don't turn this into something it is not.

There is an issue with illegal immigration in the UK and i merely said there is potential that the UK ends up in a similar state to the streets of Paris. Factual and comparable.

I'll bow out now.
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Lol, run away when asked to explain your nonsense.
 
ivrytwr3 said:
Why are you saying i 'vented'? It was a factual statement, please don't turn this into something it is not.

There is an issue with illegal immigration in the UK and i merely said there is potential that the UK ends up in a similar state to the streets of Paris. Factual and comparable.

I'll bow out now.
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Right, "there is a potential" is different to saying "UK is rapidly declining"

Anyway, moving on.
 
I recently bought a business in SA and it was eye opening to some of the issues that you raise. These are affluent people in Cape Town, which purports to be the premier sub saharan Africa tech hub. Yet those rolling power cuts make office working conditions ridiculously bad. Power cuts means no AC and no internet. Your large corporate clients might be protected with generators but we have to cancel business at short notice due to not having the same. No good for people's well being nor the economy.

The poverty and inequality is off the chart bad. Corruption is rife. You're aligning yourself with Russia a little bit. All horrendous.

But.... people will compare their standard of living to what they're used to, what their peers are doing and what they aspire to. In the same way SA is still better off than say somewhere like Malawi so the UK is better off than SA. But it is worse than UK folks have experienced and worse on many ways than the G7 as peers and so I think folks have the right to grumble, even if there are worse places in the world.
 
I think the point is, that in the other thread, until it was known the OP was in South Africa people were basically saying don't move to the UK, so this can only have been based on an assumption the OP lived in a country deemed a better place than the UK.

Well, why did several posters assume this?

I don't think 30 years ago the same assumption would have been made.

My personal opinion is that 30 years ago you could say the UK was up there amomg some of the best countries in the world to live, weather aside.

I still think, if you compare against the world generally it's still above average, but..... declined, sure, and I fear the rate of decline is only getting steeper, and I think the next few years at least are not going to be fun for a lot of people.
 
I worked 2 hitches offshore and we stayed in Cape town a few nights at the ends of the shift.

I considered myself a bit street wise coming from the crapper parts of London but I was properly on edge every time we left the hotel.

Proper ****hole.
 
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BigT said:
I recently bought a business in SA and it was eye opening to some of the issues that you raise. These are affluent people in Cape Town, which purports to be the premier sub saharan Africa tech hub. Yet those rolling power cuts make office working conditions ridiculously bad. Power cuts means no AC and no internet. Your large corporate clients might be protected with generators but we have to cancel business at short notice due to not having the same. No good for people's well being nor the economy.

The poverty and inequality is off the chart bad. Corruption is rife. You're aligning yourself with Russia a little bit. All horrendous.

But.... people will compare their standard of living to what they're used to, what their peers are doing and what they aspire to. In the same way SA is still better off than say somewhere like Malawi so the UK is better off than SA. But it is worse than UK folks have experienced and worse on many ways than the G7 as peers and so I think folks have the right to grumble, even if there are worse places in the world.
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What prompted you to buy a business in an environment as unfriendly to businesses as this one?

I hadn't mentioned the inequality; off the charts is correct - I believe the gap between the haves and have nots one of the worst there is. Which fuels the crime.
 
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