South Africa

[Priapus]

It was requested (@Diddums ) that I start a separate thread as I (accidentally) derailed another thread slightly (My bad)

Some background before we get into the discussion about the country.

I'm South African; I was born in South Africa and currently stay here. When I was around ±11 - my parents moved to the UK and there I attended school and spent roughly 5/6 years in the country. It was during that time I met my now wife - who was born in the UK (That's a different story for another day, perhaps - its long - about 20 years)

We visit the UK every year just about to see family now. Will be there again in two weeks time for July.

When I was 16, I decided I had to return to SA for some reason - this was 2006 or there about - roughly when I stopped using these forums.

So, the derailment of the other thread started when I asked about something local that happened and I suspect "everyone knew about it" in the UK - so I put up a disclaimer that I am asking because I don't stay in the UK (Yet) - which prompted a whole discussion about why I should not be moving to UK because "its a disaster" and such.

The reason for my move back to the UK is to be closer to family and our son needs to grow up round family (Also, he has a better future there, than here in SA)

I found it rather amusing that people were quick to point out how crap the UK is and that I should not move; it had me wondering if people in the UK knew enough about life in South Africa - to what extent does the BBC and other media outlets cover the country's issues?

To name a few:

- Highest unemployment in the world (Around 40%- vs UK at 3.7%)
- Poor education system
- Some of the highest crime rate - and violent, senseless crime
- Rapidly failing infrastructure
- Power outages on and off since 2008 - last 8 months, it was every day up to 10hrs a day
- Police service non-existent - calling the police if someone broke into your house is pointless. You might get through to someone, if you do, you hope they understand what you are saying - and then you hope someone might come out.

And many other issues.

I guess, the point I am making, is that yes, the UK has it's issues and yes life isn't perfect there - but it's a lot better than a lot of places in the world and to say "Oh at least we are better than SA, such a low bar" just tells me people have no idea, which is fair enough I guess.

I don't ask for much and once we move to the UK I look forward simple, every day thing, like walking along a beach front or in a park somewhere with my family and not worry about getting shot or mugged. I look forward to being able to drive around and not worry about making sure all windows and doors in the car is locked and I look forward to not worrying every time my wife leaves the house with our son, that they don't get hijacked or mugged or worse.

Also, I understand where the British are coming from when they say it's **** in the UK; but it's all about perspective in the end.

Some of you had questions that I could not answer and stories to tell; this is the point of the thread. Ask here and I can answer (As well as other South Africans on these forums)

I hope this is the right section of the forums - maybe Speakers corner? I wasn't sure.

 

[Priapus]

UK is better that SA - that is obvious, but the UK is declining rapidly.

In what ways is it declining rapidly?

I laugh at what people in the U.K. consider a disaster. I mean it’s fair because it means they’ve grown up/lived in a very healthy system, so where it is now to what it used to be is a shift.

On the flip side, even the current U.K. is a significant improvement over current SA (except weather and housing).

Yeah, it a fair point if you've lived in one place all your life and can see the change and consider it a disaster. Yes, weather in SA is amazing and housing isn't an issue - if you happened to be employed and happen to earn enough money. The youth suffer the worse, especially if you're the wrong skin color.

My sister in-law in the UK, has changed jobs about three or four times now in the last 6 months. She's young and figures "I don't like this job - will get another"

I laughed when my wife told me this; here in SA - she'd have to hope she finds a job at a young age and then hold on it to for dear life.

 

[Priapus]

Did you read my post?

I did. But you have not explained. Just vented about people in the streets and saying that might happen to the UK. Very vague and not an answer.

 

[Priapus]

I am thankfully in IT so getting a job there wasn’t an issue, but your options are very limited as it’s mostly with the main big companies.

Much more variety this side. Can swap and change quite easily. Definitely a broader and healthier market.

It’s easy to keep a standard of living in SA with a decent income, but my fear has always been of an impending d-day, like if the entire power grid finally gave up.

The U.K. is a great place to live but it’s sad to see the current trajectory. Very similar fear mongering used to get voters, as with the ANC, and those are usually the people who suffer the most.

Yes, if you're in IT - you might get somewhere. I myself am an iOS developer and finding a job is easy. But for my son when he is at working age? Doubt. Wrong skin color.
You have to be in the right area in IT - as in, if you're someone who "just" fixes computers - the market is saturated with supply. So good luck and wages are very low.

The bigger issue of course, as I said is the youth not having opportunities ands jobs. We have more people dependant on the state, than there are tax payers. I think there are like 20m tax payers (Earning enough to pay tax) and 40m on grants... it's not sustainable.

Regarding the power - the whole grid did not give up. We just do not have enough generation capacity. Demand is 30GW and until recently, we were lucky to generate more than 22GW on a given day. The reasons for this is corruption, mismanagement, lack of skills, etc, etc.

You're right though; I am tired of worrying about what the next thing will be dragging this place down - tired of worrying about the future to this degree. As I have mentioned, yes the UK is not perfect - but its hard to argue that its anywhere near SA and will probably never get to the point where people are scared to walk outside alone during the day or night.

Yea but as I recall in that thread that was before it was known you are in South Africa.

Following that I don't think anyone made out the UK is worse, plus I think the issues in South Africa are generally well known.

I'm not dismissing this thread, sure it'll be a good discussion, but just clearing that bit up

Fair point.

 

[Priapus]

Why are you saying i 'vented'? It was a factual statement, please don't turn this into something it is not.

There is an issue with illegal immigration in the UK and i merely said there is potential that the UK ends up in a similar state to the streets of Paris. Factual and comparable.

I'll bow out now.

Right, "there is a potential" is different to saying "UK is rapidly declining"

Anyway, moving on.

 

[Priapus]

I recently bought a business in SA and it was eye opening to some of the issues that you raise. These are affluent people in Cape Town, which purports to be the premier sub saharan Africa tech hub. Yet those rolling power cuts make office working conditions ridiculously bad. Power cuts means no AC and no internet. Your large corporate clients might be protected with generators but we have to cancel business at short notice due to not having the same. No good for people's well being nor the economy.

The poverty and inequality is off the chart bad. Corruption is rife. You're aligning yourself with Russia a little bit. All horrendous.

But.... people will compare their standard of living to what they're used to, what their peers are doing and what they aspire to. In the same way SA is still better off than say somewhere like Malawi so the UK is better off than SA. But it is worse than UK folks have experienced and worse on many ways than the G7 as peers and so I think folks have the right to grumble, even if there are worse places in the world.

What prompted you to buy a business in an environment as unfriendly to businesses as this one?

I hadn't mentioned the inequality; off the charts is correct - I believe the gap between the haves and have nots one of the worst there is. Which fuels the crime.

 

[Priapus]

I worked 2 hitches offshore and we stayed in Cape town a few nights at the ends of the shift.

I considered myself a bit street wise coming from the crapper parts of London but I was properly on edge every time we left the hotel.

Proper s hole.

And Cape Town (Parts of it) is considered a lot safer than the rest of the country. I refuse to even go to the CBD in Johannesburg.

 

[Priapus]

If it's any consolation, I moved from SA to here just over 20 years ago as soon as I got out of high school, and it was the best decision I ever made.

That said, I have seen things get worse and worse here over those 20 years, and especially in the last 10 or so, but no for the reasons some other have mentioned.

I also finally managed to convince my parents to move over here from SA (mom is British), as it took a long time to get my Saffa dad on board, and they now live in a gorgeous part of Wales.

The sad thing, is one of the main reasons for them moving here was to get away from the utterly corrupt government in SA... and within the past 2 years the UK government has been the biggest crapshow in decades.

When last did you visit SA?

 

[Priapus]

Was a bit of a shock when I went back for the first time after moving here (8 years) and saw that all my friends had electric fences, which wasn't the case when I grew up in Cape Town. Some even had neighbourhood funded security guards walking the streets.

Oh that's common now - our area has two security vans driving and patrolling the whole area. We're even a "gated community" which is super common now. Thankfully, no incident since we moved to the area 3 years ago.

2008, 2010, 2015, and 2018, actually got married there, but am in the process of renouncing my citizenship.

So, if anyone wants to see "rapid decline" - from 2018 to now, it's gotten a lot worse. Just driving along the roads is bad enough, having to always dodge potholes - you can see the decline literally everywhere you look.

Why are you renouncing citizenship?

We plan on leaving next year; and I will be on a path to British citizenship (5 or 6 year path) - I won't renounce SA citizenship, because hardly seems worth the effort.

 

[Priapus]

I want to change my name by deed poll, and you can't have 2 passports with different names, and SA doesn't allow name changes, so I'm going to bin it.

South Africa allows name changes; the Births and Deaths Registration Act (BDRA) 51 of 1992 read with the Identification Act 68 1997, provides for the rectification, amplification and amendment of the personal information of individuals as contained in the National Population Register of South Africa (NPR).

 

[Priapus]

It's a bit of a weird comparison. I'm sure most countries look great when compared to SA. And the UK being better doesn't mean that the UK isn't in decline either.

Never disputed that.

However, does the state of the country have you wondering if it's time to leave?

Most South Africans would get on a plane right now and go somewhere else, if they could. Many friends have emigrated and many more are in the process of doing just that. In the last three years, I know of 4 families who have packed up and left. My neighbour just sold his house and leaving the country.

 

[Priapus]

That does not allow someone to change their surname to something brand new. We went through all the motions with the consulate and lawyers.

Alright, fair enough.

 

[Priapus]

If living standards and job opportunities decline then I'm sure people will leave. We're a country run by corrupt individuals (I suppose most countries are the same) who convinced large parts of the population to vote against their best interests, the outcomes from this are starting to be felt now. People seem to forget that we were once called the 'sick man' of Europe.

Agreed that Brexit was a complete **** show and the average voter had no idea what they were really voting for, besides "Immigration control" which I believe had nothing to do with it, anyway.

 

[Priapus]

I've heard about the power cuts in South Africa, daily occurrence apparently.

Honestly, even ignoring all the other issues in South Africa, that's enough reason to leave. Power is kind of important and it doesn't sound like it's getting any better.

It started in 2008 - the government were warned in 1997. They did nothing.

Last 12 months has been brutal. Fortunately I have solar and batteries as backup at home, so house always has power. However, we are often out of the house at shops and it's quite an experience being at the shops and them power goes out - just darkness. Even worse when you're at a restaurant waiting for food.

Not going to get better over the next decade, no.

The UK has its problems but saying the place is a disaster and it's on the decline are either just bitter remainers or immigrant bashers.

There's plenty of opportunities in the UK for anyone who has ambition and is prepared to work hard, you don't have to look far to find examples of this. Our current prime minister is the son of migrants so saying the UK is terrible place are just talking out their behinds.

I don't buy the argument that the UK is a disaster; but I have a very different perspective of what a disaster looks like in a failing country.

I have zero doubt that my family will be better off in the UK, in many ways.

 

[Priapus]

I've never met a nice South African

Political song about Apartheid by British show "Spitting Image"

www.youtube.com

/waves @ Priapus

Was waiting for you to show up.

 

[Priapus]

I find it hard to understand SA personally...my father grew up there for a few years in his teens and loved his time there, we are talking back in the 30s though perhaps. COuldnt it be a rather resource rich country?

30's was a different time; might as well say it was a different country then, completely unrecognisable from today in literally every sense.

The sad thing is; South Africa could easily have been one of the best countries in the world - but we're far too gone for that now.

 

[Priapus]

Labour might be slightly less corrupt but let's not kid ourselves that they're going to be much more competent.

Since I am completely out of the loop, re UK government; can you (Or anyone) provide examples where they government has been corrupt, and poor performance etc?

 

[Priapus]

lol just google baroness mone PPE

I guess the challenge is finding a government that isn't corrupt. The difference I guess, is in SA the corruption has and does affect every day life in a very significant way. As you know, of course.

 

[Priapus]

I'm sure its always been there in the UK but not so brazen. Honestly the current lot are a stain on the country but it'll soon pass.

It's impossible because it's human nature. However, the trend suggests that the longer 1 government stays in power, the higher the chance corruption creeps in. It happens in all cultures, across continents, political divides, and time.

That's one thing SA has against it. The ANC have been in charge since 1994 - and with a majority. So they have been able to do pretty much what they want. We have elections next year and it's expected that the ANC will fall below 50% for the first time. Maybe they will - but they will still hold the biggest share of the votes and still be in charge (bit via a coalition) and so nothing will improve for at least another generation in SA. It will get worse.

It's expected that labour will get in, next election in the UK - I'll admit I know nothing about UK politics, so I would have to read up to have a more informed opinion on that.

 

[Priapus]

Are you guys literally telling the would-be SA immigrant that they're the problem the country is facing? Very classy.

No, I think the issue is illegal immigrants, if I am reading the comments correctly - most people seem supportive of legal immigration.