Spain House Build - PLANNING APPROVED

[Martynt74]

For some following my thread elsewhere may have seen we're about to build a house over here in Spain. The plot is going to be pretty rural with loads of views of the mountains, and so an open plan, build with decent window views is the main plan.

After chats with a local developer, we decided on this build. He had around 6 "standard" house models and this fit our needs in terms of size/cost/layout. However we added the laundry to the top right, and switched the front door from where it is in this picture to the back of the house as seen on the floorplan

We were really happy with this, but now it's getting to the crunch time of signing the forms we're having some doubts.

Main concerns
1) Due to the large windows in the front room/kitchen, it doesn't offer a suitable location for a pellet burner. I like the idea of it on the wall inbetween the 2 windows, but my wife wants it in the top left corner alongside the TV. To me this cramps loads of things into one corner of a big room, but i can see the appeal of being snuggly on a sofa watching fire
2) The door to bedrooms 2/3 is in the middle of the seating area. Dormitorio 2 is going to be my office. This means that every time i want a drink/general skive, i'm going to be walking in front of my wife on the sofa. It also puts the sofa miles from the TV


The above are pretty much it for our "issues" with the plan and they both stem from the same thing.

Possible thoughts/changes
Replace the left patio door with a wall up to midway and then have a 1.5 / double sized bifold door on the kitchen side. This creates extra wall space, the tv could then go on this wall if needed with the sofa backing to the bedroom entrances
Steal a bit from bedroom 3, put the entrance to the bedroom "Pasillo" where the bedroom 3 door is
Put the kitchen units along the right side wall. This opens up loads of wall space. In fact he sent me a floorplan suggestion with exactly this

Other Notes to make
We like the bedroom 2/3 separate from the main bedroom, some layouts put them all in a row, but we like them separated.
We're unlikely to have a dining table as per the top floorplan. We'll have a nice outdoor table on the terrace and otherwise will eat at the island/sofa. A table just annoys the wife as i use it as a dumping group for stuff!
The general dimensions of the above layout work for us, we want single floor living and nothing too big as it's only the 2 of us. I'll also be adding a ~50m2 garage as a home gym/music room
The exterior of the house isn't 100% to our tastes, it's very possible that we finish it like this

So to you lovely lot. What changes would you make if you had the choice with no restrictions? Also what's the best/easiest floorplan/rendering tool i can have a play around with?

 

[Martynt74]

Plan 1 take away the bit of sofa against the wall and mirror it on the other side of the sofa.
This gives you a walk way to the kitchen or use a smaller sofa

Good point, however i'm not sure the room width gives enough space to move the corner bit of the sofa to the other side without limiting walking room in front of the double doors

on plan 1 you have loads of space in front of island and along wall. whats your plans there as its all hugging back wall.

Not too sure, i think with the island we'd likely make it considerably longer so it's 2 long rows of cabinets, then on the right wall will likely be a cabinet with a picture above it. Mainly because it's about the only place we can think to put the picture there!

The other plan would be to go with plan 2, but shift the window along so we can utilise the bottom wall into a U shaped kitchen, this potentially helps move the cabinets further down away from the front door to avoid the entrance being cramped. I would love to try and squeeze front doors like this into the build, just not sure if it fits anywhere

 

[Martynt74]

I'll post something sensible when I've finished work but just a note for the future that I hope you don't piscina the pool

Just like the Italian who went to Malta, i told the waitress "i wanna fork on the table"

 

[Martynt74]

On plan 1 can't you swap the kitchen area and the seating area?

Have a straight long sofa or chaise lounge sofa instead of a corner.

We probably could. I just need to try and remember why my wife didn't want to!

No real issues other than why is the lavadero so big? Could some of the width go to bedrooms 2 and 3? Is it just for symmetry of the windows?

It was actually a choice by us to have it big. By the time you have a washing machine, boiler, wine rack (essential!), server rack with battery storage and shelves for bulk purchases i don't think there's really much room left. We also had an american fridge in the utility room back in England and quite liked it being out of the way.

 

[Martynt74]

So, was up until around midnight last night playing with floorplan ideas, and i think i quite like this

It makes the master suite pretty big, with walk in wardrobe section
The seating area faces a big wall for the TV
It has a decent entrance hallway
Nice recessed bit outside the main bedroom for a small seating area
Great views from the main bedroom
Laundry is pretty big, with an external door for that end of the house
Main bathroom is open to all, rather than being focussed towards bedrooms 2/3

It takes the above plan and adds around 5m2 of floorspace but that shouldn't add *too* much cost to make it unaffordable

 

[Martynt74]

Can you upload a site plan / google map (hide some stuff if you don't want to give out your exact location though (OCUK Spain meet!!!! )) Lots of things to consider. Where will you spend most of your time so are views important? Shelter from midday sun, is there a prevailing wind at all? Does the site slope at all?

38°20'39.1"N 0°53'16.8"W

maps.app.goo.gl

We've not 100% finalised it, but it's looking very likely to be the above. Basically the plot is the section of "scrubland" in between the 2 plots above and below which have neatly planted olive trees/grape vines. It's around 40,000m2 in total.

We did see this yesterday though which is quite a bit cheaper and can buy an adjacent plot to take it closer in size.

https://www.thinkspain.com/property-for-sale/5821141

Either way, both plots are largely level, and surrounded by mountains and so views aren't too important. The plan will likely to be to have 2 seating areas so we're making the most of views/shade.

Does it have to be single storey?

Single story is far nicer if you can have it... Also makes it better as you inevitably get older and stairs start being annoying.

As above, it doesn't have to be, but given the total build size we'd need (~100-120m2), having that over 2 levels would create a really small footprint which might look odd. There's also some planning limitations that you can't go over 7m in height, so i'd rather be single storey and not have to mess with stairs, especially with it being such a large plot.

I binge watch a lot of American house builders and you'd be surprised... they optimise the builds for the materials they have around. You could go from needing 100x 2.4m to like, 150x2.4m for something daft. (made up numbers but you get what I mean).

Also with all due respect - designing a house is a proper skill/discipline, are you leveraging existing floor plans for your ideas?

I feel like this is an instance of me trying to design Cities in Sim City and then burning the computer in anger when it turns out crap.

What i will say after having done it myself is, do it with an architect at your side. Don't try and do it all yourself as they've got a better grasp of what works well and what doesn't. I came up with a load of floor plans before and turns out they'd all have been toss for the most part.

For our house our architect drew up a floor plan after our meetings and then we only altered some easier bits like we added a separate lounge and added in another small study for my wife and changed the orientation of the stairs.

The other thing to think of is make sure you really do want open plan, we've got a big open kitchen/diner/living room and it's lovely for entertaining but we hardly ever sit there in an evening or while stuffs being cooked. It's just too noisy and even with the best extractor fan you still get kitchen smells, the best thing we ever did is have a separate lounge, i think i'd have sold the house by now if we hadn't done that.

The plans in the opening post are the architect standard layout drawings (with my adjustment to move the door to the top right), my effort in post 12 was completely my own attempt.
However having been to Ikea at the weekend, i think the 4.4m wide lounge in the original plans gives sufficient width for the sofa we'd want and to have 1m as a walkway either side so the sofa would be more central rather than up against the wall as per the architect drawings.

What was surprising was that the builder has quoted ~€1250/m2 for any adjustments. My plans to take his original design, but make the lounge 1m wider would add 10m2, so ~€13k of cost. However the wall would be exactly the same size, so you're only really adding ~1m of wall on either side and then the additional concrete for the base and roof (everything here is built as a concrete slab base, with around 8 structural concrete supports and then everything else is non structural), so i wouldn't have thought the material/labour cost would justify the cost. As such it doesn't really add enough for the additional costs proposed.


As for the open plan design, it's a tricky one. It's only the 2 of us, and so not much noise, and we're generally always together anyway. We've lived in open plan places in the past and it's fine for us. As @Hodders says, a decent extractor is essential. I think the main reason for the open plan is so you then can open the doors and the terrace becomes part of the living/kitchen area and you get the whole indoor/outdoor living thing.
There's then going to be a separate ~50m2 garage which will be a room for my stereo, and possibly home cinema and so there'll be a comfy place away from the kitchen if we ever want to shut ourselves away.

 

[Martynt74]

If there is only two of you, do you need 3 bedrooms one with en-suite? Could maybe get more space if you limited those things?

Also can't you attach garage to house and have it more habitable?

Im no expert in any of this but I'd be looking to orient the main living room windows towards the biggest mountains and where there won't be anything in the way like other houses or roads.

Is it better to separate the bedroom areas from the living room areas by some form of corridor or hallway area?

Will the house be right in the middle of that plot with a long driveway, or nearer the road?

Well, the plan is the top right bedroom would be my office, then we have one spare bedroom for guests. That room could also be used by the wife when she's having a bad crash and needs to shut herself away in the dark and can watch tv away from noise. That way we don't have a tv in the bedroom and can orient the bed towards a big window.
That was the appeal of the bedroom orientation in post 12. The bed faces out to the side, rather than to the pool area.

I've ummed and ahhed about garage location. Having it separate means that there's no noise issues. If i want to absolutely blast music then it's separate enough to not be annoying . We could also build from lesser materials to keep costs down, however there's also the appeal of having it attached. Especially as it's more likely to be livable space. I could then just build a shed for tools/workshop away from the house with a covered car port for working on the car.

Oh, there's mountains in every direction and no cars/houses in the view (except way into the distance). We'd likely orient to the west, as whilst the mountains aren't the biggest, they're the closest and would be completely uninterupted.

I'm not a huge fan of the bedrooms directly off the living area and a corridor is a good idea. They seem to like the immediate bedrooms off living space here though.

House will likely be placed like this, although would need to spend more time there to really finalise it. Obviously not to scale

 

[Martynt74]

Yeah, we really need to keep going up at various times to check. The issues being the mountains block the sun anyway quite early, but unsure if that's just because it's a little lower in winter and therefore not be as much of an issue in summer. I know this side of the valley is quite shaded though vs the other side in the evening.

Stupid mountains!

 

[Martynt74]

I'm trying to figure out if you mean that you are stepping away from a work computer to get a glass of water, or you are sneaking off from your wife to sit in your study and drink booze instead of being given chores haha

If it's the former I don't really see the issue, I mean how often is this going to happen, every couple of hours? Or is your wife going to to be working from the sofa on private phone calls or something? (I have that sort of scenario in that my wife typically works in the kitchen and has to deal with some quite sensitive safeguarding topics, so on the rare occasions we're both working from home I have to be wary of that going to get food/drinks, or she goes into a bedroom).

Your comment about table being a dumping ground resonates, but if you don't have a table, you'll still need a dumping ground like sideboards or something.

Haha, sadly it's the former!

Yeah, we both work from home, and she works from the sofa, and then sits watching TV. I don't think it'd be a huge issue, but it could be annoying. Especially as i'm fantastically useless and will often forget things and so could be wandering past every 30 seconds as things pop into my head!

1. I prefer this, the master bedroom looks too small in the original.
2. It looks like you'll have a TV on the interior wall shared with Master Bedroom - possibly a noise issue if anyone is watching TV whilst you and/or your wife are trying to sleep?
3. I'd try and make it bigger if you can, if I was building a new home I'd want over 120m^2 for sure.
4. Regarding bedrooms off the living space, to me it feels like corridors are sort of 'wasted' space so it makes sense to me, although I don't like chained bedrooms (having to walk through one bedroom to access another). My grandmothers old house had ridiculous landing area, very wide except for the bit where it narrowed for the staircase up to the top floor. It was bigger than one of the bedrooms!

I think i prefer this layout too. I'm going to run it by the builder/architect and see what objections they have.

TV i don't think would be an issue. She tends to go to bed early due to her illness and i've got into the habit of using headphones. The few times i don't i quickly put them on because of the dogs snoring (If you've heard a French Bulldog snore you know what i mean!). I'd also still have my "man cave" room in the external garage so if i wanted to make noise i have that option.

I kind of agree with corridors, although i think there's a balance. For example my layout in post 12 you preferred means guests are coming into the kitchen area to go to the toilet which could be awkward. In the original plan then at least it's hidden away. The alternative would be to make it a jack/jill style bathroom with my office. That way the entrance is private and i know if we have guests it's their bathroom and i just go from my office to the en-suite which isn't a big deal, and if we're just hosting then people who come round can use that bathroom.

Making things bigger then becomes a hit on costs and that's the tough part. Bear in mind i'd have a separate garage (which isn't really a garage), which is around 40-50m2. So all of my "stuff" (home gym/hifi/workshop) is separate from the main house. This leaves the main house as just being used just for the 2 of us for living and then accommodate guests.

I'd actually prefer the idea of a separate guest house. So the main house would only be 2 bedrooms (our main bedroom and an office for me), and then guests have their own separate place. That way they feel more at home/separate and we don't have any intrusion in the house from guests. Especially if people stay for longer as we expect my mother in law to do. The flip side to that is that if i had a separate building distanced from the house then i'd want to rent it out and everytime we had guests i'd be thinking it was costing me around 300-400 a week

Since i mentioned costs above, i guess i should say that the "base" cost of the plan in the OP which is 103m2 comes to around €273k, with adding various "extras" including a separate building of 50m2 (built using lesser materials but still being livable), a pool cover, upgrading air con to a heat pump based split system, electric shutters, full solar system including 13kwh battery storage, and extending the terraced area brings us to around €340k, the plot of land then is coming to around €80k. You then have 13% taxes on top bringing the whole lot to a cost of €460k and that's really our limit.

 

[Martynt74]

Been slightly thinking about the above since the posts when driving round looking at plots this evening.

I'm actually wondering if a better option is the build out the house as per the above, but make bedrooms 2/3 into my office and home gym (would probably extend the 2 rooms slightly and then wouldn't need a corridor at all as the non en-suite bathroom would be less important to be concealed for private pooping.
Then instead of an external garage of 50m2, i could build a small 2 bed unit which was self contained. This would then be used for guests/rentals. As long as the builders did the structural work, then i could fit a kitchen/bathroom easy enough.

The plot is big enough that there is sufficient space to keep it far enough from the main house, whilst still being close enough for it not to feel too isolated.

The addition of a hifi room could then come later on if i decided i needed it, although in all honesty, whilst i like the idea, the amount of use it'd get would be minimal.

 

[Martynt74]

For people wondering about directions/layouts. Here's a few pictures of the 40,000m2 plot


View from the road of the "middle" of the plot. Pretty much goes to the base of the hill so no obstruction in that direction.

Plot on the right of the road looking towards the town

Pretty much goes towards the white building in the distance

Sunrise shot

 

[Martynt74]

Opening thread, I assume he has already built a few designs the same as this, can he arrange for you to visit one. It would be much easier to see what does and doesn’t work by being in a similar build

No, it's a new design they've pretty much come up with following stealing the plans from taking over a failed build and liking the design. However this was in partnership with the architect and the existing clients are already in but aren't happy showing people around. I guess the problem with working with smaller builders who only build a few homes a year vs some of the big developers.

What we did view was one of his other builds (this is what showed the quality of his work). This was the design of the house and whilst we liked it, there were a few elements that didn't work for us, such as no dressing room and the entrance being through the laundry room. We'd have wanted to turn it into a corridor


We went out to the plot with the builder and the architect on Wednesday and decided on the positioning of the house on the plot. We then hit a stalemate. My wife and the architect believe that the pool should face south to maximise the sun, however me, the estate agent and developer would all flip it 180 degrees, so the pool looked out over the valley and hills. Facing south still faces the mountains close by, but without the sweeping views that being high up in a valley gives which would be lovely from the lounge. We would all counteract the lack of south facing by moving the pool away from the house to keep it in maximum sun. With the house only being single storey, even in the shortest day (yesterday) the shadow cast by the house would only be around 8m, however it was also mean the covered patio would be shaded which isn't ideal.


I then started to think about potential layout changes which give both a south facing pool, whilst still keeping views from the open plan lounge. I remembered the house we viewed which had the bedroom either end with a lounge/kitchen in the middle. This was the design, and actually the picture of the house we viewed. It'd been built around 3 years, hence the slight discolouring on the paint.

I then started to use a floorplanning tool to make some tweaks to it, and came up with the below. It's around 20m2 bigger than the original and keeps a separate front door but moves it to the side so that the cars etc aren't at the same side as the lounge area.

I've asked for a rough price from the architect to try and create something which fits us now that he's seen the plot and can try and integrate the house into the land and make it work in every sense. Whilst i'm still confident the original layout would suit us brilliantly, having the best of everything by making small adjustments seems worth it at this stage.


In other news i've just signed the initial contract with the builder. This means the architect and surveyors can get back to the land and assess the ground and see what's needed ahead of finalising plans.

 

[Martynt74]

Ok. Been a fair old wait as the land seller has had some issues setting up power of attorney for the sale. Things are now scheduled for the 20th February. As such we had a meeting with the builder on Tuesday and have narrowed down the house layout to the below

It's mostly the original plan, but with the top section shifted over to move that door behind the sofa. We do have quite a bit of "wasted" space in the hallway and i'd have preferred to shift that to the lounge area, but my wife liked it like this. I had concerns it might be dark, but i think with motion sensors setup it should be ok.

The window to the right wall will be a high up long narrow window so will have a bank of kitchen units below. Then with a big island. I think that probably gives enough kitchen space. Especially with the large laundry room.

I would still love some big ornamental wooden doors for a grand entranceway, but we need to try and find some at a decent price. Some are crazy! Found these but they're £2.5k and not sure i can justify that over a regular front door.

Indian Original Vintage Teakwood Door - Eco Village Collection IN55

Introducing the Indian Original Vintage Teakwood Door from the Eco Village Collection. Crafted in Rajasthan, India, this door is made with old teakwood, solid and beautiful. Enjoy the vintage charm of this door and the peace of mind of its construction. Features: Unique Large Entrance Door...

www.baliabundance.com.au

 

[Martynt74]

Morning,

Can't say I've followed your journey, but I can't help feel it would be nice if you square off the top left corner, and then on the top right that'd enable you to shift everything left and square off that corner. Unless, I guess, you're trying to get a northern view, as drawn, from the en-suite. Otherwise, I can't see why you'd have those two bits jutting out.

Maybe, though, it's architecturally more interesting..

Couple reasons.

1 we were trying to break up the big white box look of a lot of new build villas. The plan is to finish with a stone effect render to try and get it to fit in more

2 The original plan was similar to your suggestion. The problem is that shifting everything left moved the doorway to the bedrooms in front of the sofa which we felt would be irritating. Especially as my wife works on the sofa and so I’d constantly be walking around her. Shifting it right as above keeps a bit more separation.

 

[Martynt74]

Fair enough. I imagine you could put some nice corner windows in or something like that, which would be really nice.

Yeah, it also creates the space top left for a small terrace and with that being the guest room, it might be nice for them to have their own small private seating area.

 

[Martynt74]

Though they might be able to see into your en-suite?

Haha true, we'd just have to put the window on the other side, although i'm sure any windows would be frosted.

.. so there is a full length patio/sliding door on the guest - could have terraces even if the design was rectangular, but, then, could need sheltering.
used to have narrow terrace outside upper storey S facing bedroom patio doors - not that you ever sat out there, just open them in the morning and lay in bed looking out,

Guess you have a plan showing potential window location - rollered/shuttered. ?

The builder is with the architect today so hopefully we'll have a proper designed plan from them and not just a bodge job that i've thrown together.

Agreed on sheltering. My plan would be to put a pergola like structure in the corner bit for some cover. Mainly to again, break up the boxey flat finish with some wood.

 

[Martynt74]

Is there a risk of laundry appliances disturbing the office too much with vibrating washing machines etc?

Regarding the orientation, the number one thing for me would be maximising the views from the lounge/kitchen area. You'll presumably sit in there every day whereas you won't use the pool every day.

Bathroom looks tiny (can't even fit the sofa in? Not suggesting you want a sofa in the bathroom but just for scale!)

Probably, sorry final final update after my wife had initially shot this version down, she woke up this morning deciding she preferred it as it stops the laundry door obstructing having a big wall of units.

Bathroom is small, but it matches the one in the OP and covers having a double sink (probably swapped to a single and a tall storage unit) and a shower/toilet. It's only really for guests. The en-suite is bigger which is more important for us.


Regarding views, the benefit of this plot is that really, there is no bad orientation as it's got mountains on 2 sides, the valley on one side, and then the worst view is to the North which is where the drive/entrance will be anyway. If you take the first picture in post 30. The road you see will be the access road, then towards the top we'll turn left onto the drive which will be ~100m to the gate. Then you approach the front door and the views from the lounge/pool will face the hills to the left. It's sufficiently far away/lower that the house in the top corner won't have any views onto the plot

 

[Martynt74]

I guess the issue there is for times we have guests staying, but also day guests.
The above keeps the non master en suite a shared space, whereas turning it into another en suite removes that option.
There may also be times where I’m booted out of my office by additional guests (I’m aiming for a 50m2 man cave style out building as a backup office/gym/workshop , but makes sense to primarily use the 3rd bedroom to avoid heating/cooling extra buildings)

Not in the drawing but will likely have an internal sliding door on that opening so it can be shut off. The other option would be to move the office door to that little section to mimic the layout in the initial post.

Plans May be dashed a little as I’ve just caused serious damage to my Jeep that’s Only insured 3rd party. Annoying given it’s value but due to age it was all I could get. Could be expensive depending on the outcome and if I’ve affected the frame/tub.

 

[Martynt74]

Ok, so the architect has done the official drawings. Still a few minor tweaks i think to make, mainly being the pool being further from the house, but hopefully we can get things done quickly so we can get planning permission in. We're also questioning whether to try and save some money on the left sliding doors in the lounge and turn it into a long 3m window with sliding opening. This would unlock the change to put a sideboard style unit under the window, and given we'd likely have furniture on the terrace anyway and would never open the doors on that side, it makes sense. The main concern is whether it looks better from the outside with symmetrical openings.

What's quite cool is that i'm sure the pool was only specced as an 8x4 but they've done a 10x4 version

 

[Martynt74]

Final bit, but i'm now also trying to think of a layout for my "outbuilding". The aim is to be a bit of a man cave/gym/garage/workshop. Basically a unit for all my crap that doesn't fit/belong in the house.

I'm erring towards something like this.

Logic being. In the top left i have a covered area where the car would usually be parked. Then the left wall of the long room would have a garage roller door to be able to bring the car inside if i ever needed to. 3m wide is plenty for it and at 6m long there's plenty space at the right end for tools etc.

The top left room could be a store room for things like leaf blowers, pressure washers stuff like that. Maybe even have a workbench for woodworking tasks.

Bottom right room would likely be a home gym. Could have a large window looking down the valley

Top right room would be a bit of a "nothing" area but would be where i dumped myself if i ever get kicked out of my office in the main house when we have extra guests. The two rooms on the right could probably be combined into a longer room in reality.


I had considered adding in a bathroom, but that adds complexity for plumbing etc, and means there's a higher chance it turns into a guest house and i then lose access to other rooms because guests don't want me clattering weights or using power tools next to them!