Speaker upgrade :)

[hornetstinger]

OK I have got some Kef IQ5SE in black.

I had Kef Q55's. For music you won't need a sub, for movies definetly. Those go to about 45-50hz from approx type of speakers, so you're missing out a lot of bass information, a good 20-30hz, plus a sub will play those low frequencies cleaner, flatter, with lower THD & louder than your speakers. Once you use bass management your AVR amp channels are freeing up a lot of power, because it's no longer amplfying those low frequencies, it's re-directed to the subwoofer.

 

[lucid]

I had Kef Q55's. For music you won't need a sub, for movies definetly. Those go to about 45-50hz from approx type of speakers, so you're missing out a lot of bass information, a good 20-30hz, plus a sub will play those low frequencies cleaner, flatter, with lower THD & louder than your speakers. Once you use bass management your AVR amp channels are freeing up a lot of power, because it's no longer amplfying those low frequencies, it's re-directed to the subwoofer.

AFAICT, @jetpaczx isn't using an AVR. He said what his amp was in post #1. It's a Marantz PM6006. An amp that has only recently been purchased. This is a stereo Hi-Fi amp, and one without any form of low level subwoofer output and definitely no bass management.

None of the benefits of bass management apply in this case. None.

The only bass control would be on the sub if purchased. That's it. Nothing else. Please don't throw in irrelevant stuff that just muddies the water. It's not applicable in this case. Thanks.

 

[lucid]

Lucid do you think its worth getting a Sub Woofer?

There's no doubt that the extra bass extension from a sub is nice to have. What I would suggest though is get used to the KEFs first. You're going from relatively bass-lite compact speakers (Diamond 9.0) to a large-ish set of floor-standers. That's going to be a big change just on its own.

A lot of what we hear and identify as bass is actually in the 60-250Hz region. It's something that Bose have been exploiting for a long time - making a big thump in this region rather than tuneful bass and fooling consumers that their subs produce deep bass. Stuff below 60Hz is felt as much as it's heard.

The KEFs should get down below 60Hz quite easily, and they'll ply bass notes rather than just going bump bump bump.

Once you're used to the KEFs then consider adding a sub. If done right for music the sub's contribution will bend seamlessly to the point where you're almost unsure where the speakers tail off and the sub takes over. It centainly won't draw attention to itself if blended right. You'll notice more the absence of really low bass when the sub is switched off rather than its contribution when on. Live with the KEFs alone first though, at least for a while until you learn their character in your room.

 

[hornetstinger]

AFAICT, @jetpaczx isn't using an AVR. He said what his amp was in post #1. It's a Marantz PM6006. An amp that has only recently been purchased. This is a stereo Hi-Fi amp, and one without any form of low level subwoofer output and definitely no bass management.

None of the benefits of bass management apply in this case. None.

The only bass control would be on the sub if purchased. That's it. Nothing else. Please don't throw in irrelevant stuff that just muddies the water. It's not applicable in this case. Thanks.

You forgot about using subwoofers with high pass. I've used it in the past with stereo sub, standmount speakers.

 

[lucid]

You forgot about using subwoofers with high pass. I've used it in the past with stereo sub, standmount speakers.

No, I'm not.

It's impossible to blend a sub with some main speakers in a high-level-only configuration without the sub's crossover control. But if you're suggesting that this will somehow result in "freeing up a lot of power, because it's no longer amplfying those low frequencies, it's re-directed to the subwoofer" then you're entirely mistaken.

 

[hornetstinger]

No, I'm not.

It's impossible to blend a sub with some main speakers in a high-level-only configuration without the sub's crossover control..

#

Have you actually done this? Subs crossover is not disabled, it just has a high pass on the speaker output.

You can do this perfectly fine with a sub with high pass. The subs crossover is perfectly usable in high pass mode.

I know as I've done it myself, SVS SB12+ that sub has speaker input & output, high pass mode, fixed to 80hz.

Amp out ------>Sub------>Speakers

Speakers receive >80hz filtered, sub crossover selectable between 40hz to 120hz, or full range if you flick crossover to bypassed (which you wouldn't do of course in a hifi setup)

https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/images/svs-sb12-plus-subwoofer-rear-panel.jpg

 

[lucid]

#

Have you actually done this? Subs crossover is not disabled, it just has a high pass on the speaker output.

You can do this perfectly fine with a sub with high pass. The subs crossover is perfectly usable in high pass mode.

I know as I've done it myself, SVS SB12+ that sub has speaker input & output, high pass mode, fixed to 80hz.

Amp out ------>Sub------>Speakers

Speakers receive >80hz filtered, sub crossover selectable between 40hz to 120hz, or full range if you flick crossover to bypassed (which you wouldn't do of course in a hifi setup)

https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/images/svs-sb12-plus-subwoofer-rear-panel.jpg

I swear to God that you make up your own version of peoples replies.

1) I never said that in high level mode the sub's crossover is disabled. What the hell would be the point in that be with a typical high-level connection since the sub is in-line with the 20Hz-20kHz amplifier output?

2) Your assumption is that the high level crossover somehow filters the signal that goes to the main speakers. It doesn't.

Here, this is from one of SVS's sub manuals. Pay close attention to their wording

"Adjust the low pass filter to blend with the
natural roll-off frequency of your loudspeakers.
The manufacturer’s rated bass extension for
your loudspeakers is a good starting point"
​

The above is from SVS's own mouth. Their crossover works like everyone else's from the point of view of blending the sub to the mains. For example, if the mains start to roll off at 60Hz, then you'd taper the sub's output to blend with that. IOW the sub would filter frequencies above the 60Hz-ish crossover point. It does nothing to change the signal getting to the main speakers - which is still a minimum of 20Hz to 20kHz.

The rest of the controls on the SVS sub panel you linked to are the manual dials to do with room correction features not found generally on other subs.

So, just to be clear, the speakers don't receive a filtered signal; it's not 80Hz-20kHz or 120Hz-20kHz via the high-level connections. The switch on the crossover is there to disable it because in the example you've shown the crossover sits in line for both the high level and the low level input. You would disable the crossover if using an AVR's bass management. Other than that you'd leave it switched in.

 

[hornetstinger]

You don't know what you're talking about, and you're a AV dealer? ROFL. When a single home cinema owner knows more about a AV dealer....

Their crossover works like everyone else's from the point of view of blending the sub to the mains

Correct. But I'm not talking about that I'm talking about the HIGH PASS. It functions exactly the same as a "Bose Lifestyle system" or a generic HTIC/PC sub sat. In a Bose you send all audio (full range) to the "sub", the sub filters out <200hz, that is sent to the sub amp, and the sats speakers receive >200hz and up.

a)If I wire up my Audiolab 8000S speaker outputs to the sub in, and speakers to the amplifier, you'd enable the subs crossover and set to where you feel it's best.

b) But if I wire up my Audiolab 80000S speaker outputs to the sub in, and speakers to the sub speaker out, and turn down the subs volume all the way, then the speakers will be far less bassy than the one above, because the speakers are receiving >80hz. You enable the subs crossover, then set it to around 80hz (since that is where the high pass on the speakers is set, so you want it similar, not a huge gap nor huge overlap) then adjust the volume on the sub to blend in.

So, just to be clear, the speakers don't receive a filtered signal; it's not 80Hz-20kHz or 120Hz-20kHz via the high-level connections.

WRONG. LOL

The switch on the crossover is there to disable it

yes, it's a straight on/off.

AV system - crossover bypassed, crossover dial does not effect anything
Hifi system - enabled, then use the dial to the left of that switch.

crossover sits in line for both the high level and the low level input.

You can use the crossover (40-120hz) or bypass it. Obviously you wouldn't want the sub to output full-range, but if using switch / dial correctly, you have the two possible options.

Please buy a sub with this feature as you need to understand what you're talking about.


This is info from another SVS sub, it has more features but this is identical in concept (high pass) it has more info than the SB12+sub manual.

Alternatively, for two-channel preamps that do not have (or do not use) any digital management, the typical
connectivity scenario would be to use both the main channel Left and Right inputs into the STA-800D/STA-
1000D (Fig. 5). In this case the subwoofer would sit between the main L/R outputs of the preamp and the L/R
inputs of the STA-800D/STA1000D, with the L/R outputs of the STA-800D/STA-1000D going to the inputs of the
power amplifier for the system’s L/R main speakers. To then integrate the main speakers and the subwoofer,
the High Pass Filter, Low Pass Filter, and optionally the Delay feature of the STA-800D/STA-1000D amp would
be used. See the following section on the use of the Integrated Function Controller for more information on
using and setting these functions.

That is describing line level, and going from pre, sub then onto power (like what I'm doing, but with the ICBM1) but it's exactly the same concept. speakers receive >80hz. Whether you do it in speaker level or low level that is irrlevent.

My guess is you haven't used this, because not many subs have it. It's good to have this feature- especially if you have bookshelf, or standmounts.

 

[hornetstinger]

Look at where it says "high pass"

https://manualsbrain.com/en/manuals/1115751/?page=18

So if you go stereo integrated amp speaker output, into the "input" speaker binding posts on the sb+12, then speaker cable from sub speaker output, into the speakers, your floorstander speakers will sound "bass shy" because <80hz has been filtered out at 12dB/octave. So then you use the sub, enable crossover, set the dial to 80hz, then increase volume. Voila.

Basically like this

https://images.crutchfieldonline.co...learn/article/3976/speaker_level_inputs-2.jpg


I do something similar in the 2 channel Hifi, but at line level, with a Outlaw ICBM-1. See page 9

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/icbm_manual.pdf

 

[hornetstinger]

Can you borrow one of these?

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb13-ultra

I honestly think you need to learn about it, sure you won't use high pass in sub for a AV system (as that's what a AVR bass management is for) but it seems you are lacking when it comes to bass management, as your error sending full range 2.0 plus lfe to the sub (Rel and MJ bad advice) and setting large to L/R is wrong on the other thread, and so is your knowledge with high pass...

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb13-ultra

That lacks speaker level, but if you have a pre-amp and power amps do this

Stereo Pre-amp L/R preouts, into Sub low level input. Low level output into power amplifier. Speakers connected to power amplifier.
Go into the menu system set high pass to 80hz. Go into low pass, set that to 80hz.
You then simply adjust volume control to where it's best.

If you do that, set sub volume to minimum, and can't tell the difference on the speakers and what effect it has on the speakers -use some proper full range tower speakers, when flipping between high pass 125hz and high pass disabled, then something wrong with you lol. Obviously 125hz is way too high but it's obvious the floorstanders AREN'T receiving <125hz. So then dial it to say 60hz with LPF to match or so Ie kef Q55.

125hz high pass - tinny as hell with the floorstander
disabled high pass - speakers receive full range

You also have slope option but I'll ignore that for now.