Spec me a fun 2+2

[mjt]

Been pining after a fun car since I sold the Caterham a year ago, and I need some help.
I have 2 small(ish) children so a 2+2 would be ideal so I can take them out together, but it'll mainly be me blatting around in it. Budget around £30-40k.
Here is my list so far:

Lotus Evora (S)
Pro: It's a Lotus (handling, etc.)
Con: It's a Lotus (reliability, niggles, etc.) Tax is expensive due to the engine & CO2 (£2000 a year)

Audi TTRS
Pro: The engine, speed, all-weather usability.
Con: It's an RS Audi (cost of consumables, is it actually fun?). Will likely lose my licence.

GR86/BRZ
Pro: Apparently it's the best car ever made, relatively cheap and has a massive warranty. Lots of new BRZs available in Germany for under list.
Con: I don't like naff interiors. Maybe too slow?

BMW M2/Comp
Pro: It'll be fun to drive, and the most practical here.
Con: Relatively common, cost of tax and consumables.

BMW 1M
Pro: It's a BMW 1M
Con: Old. Will likely break and be expensive.

Porsche 911 is out due high tax and running costs. If I could afford it, I'd get a manual 991 T and be done with it.
2 seaters are pointless, otherwise I'd just get another Caterham or an Elise.
BMW M3 & M4 is out of budget for a variety of reasons.

Thoughts?
-edit: If you can think of something that's half the price, let me know! Unfortunately, large engines & CO2 emissions mean crippling taxes for me

 

[mjt]

Are you UK based? I honestly can’t think of a better option than as much 911 as you can afford.

Servicing my 997 at an excellent independent isn’t bad at all.

Alas, no. If I were in the UK, I'd have a fleet of sports cars

 

[mjt]

BMW i8 should be cheap to tax not sure how much fun they are to drive but still think these look great

Basically free to tax due to very low CO2. Unfortunately they start at £60k. Even more for the cab...

Where do you live that has a £2,000 tax on an Evora? Is that annual?

Belgium. Mixture of engine size and CO2 emissions. Registration tax (every time you buy a car) is on a sliding scale as it gets older, so for an Evora it could be between £1000 and £5000 depending on age..

Alternative - 2010/11 135i, which has the more reliable N55, and then stick some handling mods on, inc suspension. Engine is a peach from the get go, so no need to do anything with it.

Not paying north of £20k for an E87! Something like a 240/235i is mid-30s, and could do the trick, but I'd want a manual and those are extremely rare.

 

[mjt]

Is that what you’d have to pay for one?

E82 135i here will set you back 12k ish for a good example.

Good 135s are sold by dreamers and they're almost double the UK price. Ropey 235 cabs start above 20, and 240s go all the way to €40k. Which is also crazy because you can get the G42 for not much more..

Just looked on AutoTrader - can't believe you can get them for £15k in the UK. Literally half the ******* price. Sorry, but an M235/240i Cab is not a £30,000 car...

 

[mjt]

Tax is high on the Evora but presumably you can SORN and it'd balance out?

I guess, but I'd still want to drive mine in winter. I took the Caterham out all year round, just wore a thicker hat

Currently looking at a TTS, the rs just seemed a bit ott.

Had an 8P S3 and whilst it was competent, it wasn't fun. The TTRS has the 5-pot and is stupidly fast, which is another kind of fun. For daily use, it's overkill I agree. Plus things like the brakes and general servicing will cost more than a TTS.

 

[mjt]

G23 M440i xDrive could be in budget as for some reason very early ones are only a few grand more expensive than good condition F33 440i..

However, it's more of a luxury cruiser than a sports car isn't it? Yes, it'll be fun with the roof down on a summer's evening, but for hooning through the fields it won't be much fun will it? It has almost 400bhp, but it still weighs almost 2 tonnes..

 

[mjt]

4,294.08 € over here to tax an Evora for a year. Oh lol!

Crazy tax friends <3

 

[mjt]

I take it you're also in Germany? Lotus' seem to be really pricy here Especially Evora's right now.

What are you after from a fun car? Performance? Noise? Handling? Just something that puts a smile on your face? If it's the latter, maybe a Ford Mustang? That 5.0 V8 makes a noise that'd make even a corpse crack a grin. Plenty of examples around in your price range too.

Belgium. Slightly higher prices, much higher taxes
Popping over the border next week for the Techno Classica Essen so planning on driving some stuff while I'm over there.

A 2023 5.0 Mustang means registration tax of €13,250 and annual tax of €3,675..
I could always get an EcoBoost but it's a bit of a barge isn't it?

 

[mjt]

Yikes! What's it like second hand?

I admit I consider the 2.3l version completely pointless. The Mustang's only appeal to me is that V8.

That is second hand (2023)
The reg. tax will decrease slightly as the cars get older but anything with big displacement and/or big CO2 means crazy tax.
Agree Mustang = V8

 

[mjt]

I think you really need to go test a GR86 but take your kids with you so you can try out seats etc.

My 4 year old fits no problem in the back with the missus in the passenger seat. I am 6ft3" so no chance of anyone behind me without compromising driving position but if needs must I can fit my 16 year old daughter in too. If you are shorter then 2 kids in the back shouldn't be a problem.

Out of all the cars you listed bar the Evora it is also significantly lighter than the others and you can feel that on the road. It is an incredibly fun car to drive on the limit too. In my opinion that is what makes it fun because the limit is a lot lower than a M2 Comp for example.

When I got my GR86 I was also looking at M2 Comps and I would say out of that list would be my second choice.

It depends what you class as fun though. Out of all of them the GR86 will be closer to your Caterham than any of the others whilst still offering more practicality. I wouldn't call an Audi TT a sports car either. Sure it is capable. but if all you want is something which has a powerful engine and surefootedness just get the RS3 instead.

All very valid points, thanks. I'm 5'9 apparently (was measured the other week and appear to have shrunk) and I doubt we'd ever be 4-up in the car. Can put one kid up front and one in the back so not an issue.
Planning on testing a TT RS and BRZ next week, but I foresee the outcome already.
M2 is common and because the limits are so high, I'd probably end up in a hedge or a police station before much fun is had.

Judging by all the reviews, the GR86 appears to be so approachable and have low limits, which is what will make it fun at low speeds and easy to get the tail out, etc.
TTRS would probably make a great daily, but that's not what I'm looking for here..

 

[mjt]

The m440i's are pretty rapid, the convertible will be slightly slower, but still capable.. I was looking at the F33's, then kept seeing the G23 which has a nicer interior/styling, but caved in when I had a go in a Mustang 5.0 convertible..


best to always just go and test drive a few, but they are 170g/km of CO2, so presumably not too bad with tax?

Yup, lower tax on a M440i xDrive than a GR86/BRZ. But like the TTRS, It'd make an awesome fun daily rather than something special for the weekend. Not planning on selling the i3S as it costs me nothing other than insurance and depreciation, but if I were to sell it, I'd be much more into the refined, German metal..

 

[mjt]

It's funny how people have different experiences. When I slide mine to S I have lots of fun. I'm poor though so I can't really compare.

I came from a Z3 Coupe with a three litre straight-six and rwd. The S3 did its job very well, blasting through Germany at 250km/h, wintersporting in the Norwegian mountains and trundling through traffic on the way to work. It was fast and incredibly competent, like all fast Audis. It's just missing something and that'll be down to the 4wd system.
I was a passenger in the new RS3 during a drift day, and even with its "drift mode", you can't get away from the front-biased 4WD system. These cars are heavy and planted. They don't move around a lot and lack finesse, which - in my opinion - is a main part of the "fun" factor.

 

[mjt]

Made a choice, was ultimately a car I've always loved the look of, Scirocco R. Dam she's fast

I'd get a Golf R Cabrio if I had to get something on that platform. Rare and hen's teeth so something special.
Auto only though, and 270bhp in a hatch is nothing these days though!

 

[mjt]

I'll chime in with my experience if I may:
- The old model felt slow not so much because of it's low peak output, but because if had a bloody awful torque curve with a huge hole in the middle. The new one has a higher output, but more importantly, it's flattened that curve, meaning it feels much better in the mid range; there's no longer than frustrating feeling of acceleration feeling initially good, then dropping away until you reach high RPM again. I modified the old car to remove that torque hole, but the new car feels faster still. It is a much better experience with the increased displacement.
- That said, it is still fair to say that it is not a powerful car. Hustling it down a B-road, I really don't think you'd ever think it was slow. But on larger roads, you might still be concerned by a relatively low output - it's still an NA engine which needs to be worked hard to get the best out of it, so you might be disappointed if you're looking for something with a lot of oomph.
- Also, anecdotal, but it seems from dyno runs that the quoted power output (about 230bhp for Euro spec cars) is much more accurate, whereas there was a suspicion that a lot of the older models never made anywhere near their quoted 197bhp.

So if you're basing your opinion that it might be too slow on experience of the previous car, then I would say don't worry about it too much. But if you're looking for something objectively fast and powerful, then you might still want to look elsewhere.

As for the interior - well, can't argue with that. Again, it's an improvement over the previous model, but it is still a cheap interior with some scratchy plastics. In its defence, ergonomically it's spot on - driving position is great, it's relatively comfortable, important controls are all still analogue rather than on touch screens, and it has enough toys to make day-to-day use perfectly livable (auto LED lights, heated seats, cruise control, Android Auto/Apple Car Play, reversing camera, etc). But if you really can't stand cheap feeling interiors, then again, no point trying to convince you otherwise - your probably wont like the BR86.

I think its important to remember that one of the reasons that it's got so many accolades is because of the RRP. The GR86 is utterly fantastic because it offers a lot of fun for £30K. But if you're buying second hand, and can get hold of some of the other cars on your list for not much more, then it might be less appealing.

If you can, it would be best to try and get yourself a test drive if you can, because it's the kind of car you have to feel to appreciate - on paper it doesn't really sound impressive. But based on your basic requirements of "fun 2+2" and "£30-£40k", I would say it fits the bill nicely (although obviously I am biased )

Thank you for your input. Planning to drive a BRZ this week. You sum everything up nicely. I want fun, like I had in my Caterham. In the 270, you were never going fast enough to lose your licence, which is the same with the GR86/BRZ.
I know you love yours, and the fact you can actually have fun at sensible speeds, is what I'm looking for.

 

[mjt]

Someone posted a picture of a car seat bolted to the roll cage of a caterham on the Caterham Facebook group this week - maybe thats an option

If that's the picture I saw, I thought the seat was just propped onto the back as a joke.. Don't forget what day it was posted

Yup, that's what I love about it. You feel like you get more opportunity to really experience the full breadth of the car's capability on the road.

Funnily enough, another car on your list really interested me too - the BMW M2. Same kind of formula, small coupé with a manual gearbox. Ultimately, it was a bit out of my price range anyway, and I never even bothered test driving one. But I have heard from a couple of other GR86 owners who have, who said that they prefer the GR; the BMW was faster, of course, but inert feeling in comparison, and needed to be driven much faster before being as fun. Which makes me feel a bit better.

One thing to add - the BRZ apparently does drive noticeably differently to the GR86. It has a different roll bar setup, and I understand it rides somewhat softer, and tends to understeer a bit more. Seems like it might have the more 'mature' experience. Can't comment having never driven one, just something I've read/seen from people who've driven both, so something to bear in mind.

Having driven one this morning on some soaking wet German mountain roads, I can say that it was rather enjoyable. Engines revs nicely and it's remarkably comfortable. The suspension isn't bouncy or hard at all.. The car is a little bit "slow", but it's massively improved compared to the GT86 - plenty of torque, etc.
This one had the Milltek sports exhaust which sounded much better than the stock one... Time to talk to the bank

 

[mjt]

That was my biggest surprise with the GR86 is that it also doubles up remarkably well as a GT car. I did Brands Hatch and back in it last October which is a 300+ mile round trip. Cabin noise is a little on the high side but I was getting 43+ MPG on the motorway.

You can tell that they definitely skimped on the sound deadening, but it certainly wouldn't be a problem to do 100+ miles to get to some good roads, and drive back again.
Might need ear plugs just to drain out the drone, but an impressive machine no doubt, especially for the price!

 

[mjt]

Out of those choices the BMW.

The 1M is calling... Someone talk me out of it please

 

[mjt]

Great car but cabin build quality isn’t as good as an M2.

Cabin quality isn't high on my priority list for once!

 

[mjt]

That's settled then...BR86 it is!

Such a big step up from the old one, I couldn't believe it. It's even good enough for a daily

 

[mjt]

It's also owned by some of the sexier members of this forum. Dooo eeeet!

Is it special enough though? A part of me is also saying **** the kids and getting an Elise. S3 220s and the like are bloody expensive though!