Speed cameras on motorways

sorry, but you're misguided.

I don't mind saying I was happy to more or less let your post ride up to the part above. You, don't know me at all, I understand that, and we have never yet met. 'Misguided' is not a term I really appreciate. That in itself is to me the very definition of rendering a discussion personal where it just isn't nescessary and why, frequently I palm my head in dispair when browsing forum nonsenses.

Nevermind. I'll continue because I always believe there is hope.

Traditionally when (for example) one sets out to study lets say, a roadcraft inspired advanced driving course often one of the first things you come to appreciate is that everything in the highway code particularly that refers to speed, is simply not working for you as a driver from here on out. ADI Instructors used to say the very words 'forget everything you may have learn't in the highway code'. I selected Roadcraft based as one example of many. There are a few such as Rospa, Cardington etc etc but they all cite the same with regard to the highway code (the book which suggests thou shalt not 'speed!'). By this I am making a deliberate delineation for you, just to help push my point above, that what I was (albeit in a round about forum chatty kind of way) above suggesting is that there are distinctive states of mind with domestic drivers behind the wheel. The drivers who seek not to further thier skills or aims any further, by tacitly agreeing they are good enough, thier function of passign the test has served. Complacence helps them begin to forget more than they learn't the moment they tear up the L plates having passed the test. There is nothing more to learn... Woooo! And, that speed limits work by virtue of the fact that the accidents Mr and Mrs (no need to learn no more) suburban dreamer get involved in tend to occur at speeds that thankfully do not kill or maim. Those accidents occur and more often than not speed has little to do with the cause, lawful speeds limit damage while lack of due awareness create them. It is a veritable bubble beyond which many drivers rarely venture.

Out of town the situation changes dramatically, and there are a stack of pretty good video's on youtube on the mildly stimulating subject of advanced driving, things change as does situational awareness. You can see those things happening as you watch. The bubble is largely non existant here. Before I go any further I would like to say that I don't like the term 'advanced driver' a great deal. In fact I dislike it. It isn't entirely appropriate, but somehow we have to establish some kind of definition and it seems to work. So, anyway I speak from several perspectives and refrain from using that horrible self absorbed term. As a former rider of fast bikes, as a keen racing driver, as a lifelong learner and as a keen understudy of efficiencient progress in a safe and comfortable manner I speak. I combine all my experience into driving. We all should. Yet that doesn't happen does it, clearly not. Each and every single one of us have the capability and capacity to be that bit better and roll all previous things we have learned into every single moment of forward (and occasionally backward) motion in a vehicle.

Motorway speed cameras are absolutely a cash cow for they do not distinguish at all. And that to me speaks volumes about the nature of society today and the government that makes rules for it. There are many places on public roads where speeds in excess of 180+ mph for example would be perfectly safe, that is absolute fact. Sure, they are few and far between but that fact remains. There are plenty of situations and roads where 100_ mph travel would be every bit as safe as the current speed limit implies. We are however all somehow clubbed into this same place of speeding criminality by the lens of the digital average speed camera, gatso etc. That right there is fundamentally wrong and something I find unfortunately represents life on the roads today so perfectly. We are sheep, we are happy to be buried in the domicility of driving to the shops or going to work. We are perfectly non thoughtful about why the speed limits remain the same twenty four hours a day every day of the year in all conditions.

I take exeption to being called 'misled' when I have come this far and had thankfully so few incidents. In particular when I base my 24 years prior experience into my progress second by second, minute by minute and hour by hour on any given road in any given situation and condition... when I make a post based upon that in what I feel was an honest message I mean it. I will not make counter assumptions of you, but I do respectfully ask that you take that word and delete it from your mind. I will avoid labelling you in mine. Thanks. :)
 
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The_Dark_Side is spot on really.

It's pretty much pointless rallying against the current way of doing things, just like online petitions it achieves nothing. The nation is too apathetic at large to put the sort of pressure that would be noticed into action. So, speed limits - even ones deemed by some to be "stupid" - are here to stay.

Breaking the speed limit and then crying about it is just stupid really. As The_Dark_Side said, you have the choice whether to break it or not - no one is forcing you either directly or indirectly. I don't have a problem with people who break speed limits persay, as long as they don't act ignorant of the Law as it exists today, or worse talk like their basic human rights have been suppressed.

It's purely academic saying "I've been driving for X years, I know what my car is capable of and how fast I can go and still be 'safe'". It makes no difference at all to anything - you're still subject to the same rules as everyone else. If you don't like it, emigrate.

Back on topic - the M4 has some SPECs cameras between J16 and J17, enforcing a 50mph limit.
 
The_Dark_Side is spot on really.

Not when he decides to label me 'misguided' he isn't.

It's pretty much pointless rallying against the current way of doing things, just like online petitions it achieves nothing. The nation is too apathetic at large to put the sort of pressure that would be noticed into action. So, speed limits - even ones deemed by some to be "stupid" - are here to stay.

Nothing is pointless unless by that you feel unable to help yourself. I cannot help you there. Discussion of an issue is nothing like an online petition. The way of doing things as you put it also, what does that mean ? The way people speed or the way laws are effected ? I don't understand that remark at all.

Breaking the speed limit and then crying about it is just stupid really. As The_Dark_Side said, you have the choice whether to break it or not - no one is forcing you either directly or indirectly. I don't have a problem with people who break speed limits persay, as long as they don't act ignorant of the Law as it exists today, or worse talk like their basic human rights have been suppressed.

I addressed the entire issue of speed, awareness, experience and the standard of driving today in general. No one's right have been suppressed.

It's purely academic saying "I've been driving for X years, I know what my car is capable of and how fast I can go and still be 'safe'". It makes no difference at all to anything - you're still subject to the same rules as everyone else. If you don't like it, emigrate

This last statement comes from nowehere and ends nowhere. It is contentious in so far what you're claiming is that experience means nothing. You know the opposite is the truth. Saying to people that if they don't like it, just to emigrate is a horrendous generalisation of status you just assume. Not everyone can just up n leave like that. Sure I would if I could but it wouldn't be because of speed limits. You are as aware as YOU want to be. You shouldn't need me to tell you a thing, but apparently you do.

The more some people add the more protracted the issue gets. But for what it's worth at least I know with whome I would be wasting my time. I do however care, and that is why I bother.

If my opinion is something you don't like, then you can ignore it. This is aimple rule of survival and it allows those who DO wish to discuss it constructively to stay on topic without sideshow bob distractions.
 
It is not the M77. It is the dual carriageway section, ie a77

Yep, and now its a 50mph limit because an undercover cop pulled out from a side junction into the fast lane and died.

They are also on the single carriageway further south.

On the other hand, the M77 is good for making progress!
 
[Grandstanding]
You certainly like the sound of your own voice don't you.

I'm basically saying it's pointless complaining about punishments for breaking laws you are fully aware of, and in full control of your actions when you choose to break them. It's also pointless wistfully pondering what it would be like if speed cameras didn't exist and the UK government didn't have a policy that treated speed like it is the root cause of all accidents. Alas we don't, so deal with it or don't deal with it - but don't whine when you get caught.
 
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You certainly like the sound of your own voice don't you.

I'm basically saying it's pointless complaining about punishments for breaking laws you are fully aware of, and in full control of your actions when you choose to break them. It's also pointless wistfully pondering what it would be like if speed cameras didn't exist and the UK government didn't have a policy that treated speed like it is the root cause of all accidents. Alas we don't, so deal with it or don't deal with it - but don't whine when you get caught.

It seems to me like you need a lengthy explanation due to the array of little twists you bring into what should be a straight forward discussion. Coupled with little bait style efforts which I'm happy to ignore.

I'm quite happy dealing with it all and more. What I've explained, if you had read any of it at all was that others don't or cannot or will not help themselves, in turn they spite themselves. And that motorway cams are a cash cow for no good reason. End.

I don't get why you have to make it all so personal lol. It absolutely isn't meant that way. That just makes me sad and feel like apologising for giving otherwise good observations and an opinion here n there. :confused:
 
I agree with you to be honest, speeding on the motorway is a non issue and more often than not the dangerous drivers are not speeding.

Although i disagree with 180mph, maybe if this was 1970, on christmas night, and even if you did manage it you would have to slow down almost immediatley.

While perfection is probably
over here............................. and I know I am way.............................................................................................over there,
I have no problem with anyone who politely disagrees. :)
 
And if everyone broke the limit in the same day they would break. The speeding rule is for ignorant people who don't think beyond the windsreen. There are lots of them, very much like the ones who sit right on your tailgate. Sometimes these aforementioned people might have the kids in the car with them as well, screaming and demanding attention. Speed limits are there I fully agree, for a reason.

Speed limits however do not reduce accidents, merely the speed at which accidents usually occur. Failing to pay attention to your situation is by far the more dangerous risk.

You are only looking at part of the picture here, it'll take an extreme example to make this point bloody obvious, but lets suppose the dropped the motorway speed limit to 30mph, by your logic most accidents would be survivable and thus road deaths would reduce.

However people would get bored to death, especially those on long trips, so accidents would increase due to inattention, poor observation falling asleep at the wheel and so on.

Paul Smith (RIP) did a lot of research into this and many other aspects that affect safety before he started his SafeSpeed campaign. One of the conclusions he comes to is that there is basically a sweet spot, give the driver too many hazards and too much of a challenge and they are likely to have a crash, give them too few hazards and too easy a challenge and they are likely to become distracted and bored and then have a crash.

Fortunately, an easy way for drivers to regulate how much information is coming in and how hard the drive is, is to adjust their speed accordingly, and thus except for areas where a stretch of road looks a lot easier than it really is, most of us are (or rather were) pretty good at setting an appropriate speed for the conditions.

However 10+ years of Speed Kills, and government campaigns that focus purely on obeying the number in the little red circle, this skill is dying out since it's a completely different part of the brain needed to match two numbers than to judge speed distance and time.

As a result of this, the number of road deaths has remained roughly constant for the past 10 years, wheras previously it was reducing year on year. This is despite the massive improvements in safety systems in cars, including new laws requiring car designs that don't injure pedestrians so much.

I know people will shout about correlation != causation but a similar picture can be seen in pretty much every country that has gone down the speed camera route so it's pretty hard to deny.

This government's solution to this.. more cameras and lower speed limits. :rolleyes:
 
You are only looking at part of the picture here, -

- This government's solution to this.. more cameras and lower speed limits. :rolleyes:

Your posts often impress me because it appears to me that you take the time to explain detail. And, humble thanks to you Lum for the background elaboration on what must be at least a part of todays awareness problem. I do appreciate that and do personally make every effort to see the whole picture for what it is and as it is.

Sometimes I can write a longish post and still feel that I have barely brushed the surface.
 
Not when he decides to label me 'misguided' he isn't.
I suggest you read my post again as you seem to have misinterpeted it.
I've highlighted the context in which it should be taken for the benefit of others reading this.
Some people just like driving fast, and they are prepared to chance it in order to satisfy their desires, but for those who actually think they're getting where they're going noticeably quicker.....sorry, but you're misguided. It might feel like you're making better progress, but in truth you're saving a few minutes nothing more.
At no point did I suggest this was your opinion, although if indeed it is then I stand by my comment. Anyone who really thinks that by breaking the limit they are going to save anything more than a miniscule amount of time is misguided unless, as I mentioned previously, you're on a long journey (150-200 miles minimum) or you're breaking the speed limit by a country mile. If not then you're saving a matter of minutes, nothing more.
 
I suggest you read my post again as you seem to have misinterpeted it.
I've highlighted the context in which it should be taken for the benefit of others reading this.

At no point did I suggest this was your opinion, although if indeed it is then I stand by my comment. Anyone who really thinks that by breaking the limit they are going to save anything more than a miniscule amount of time is misguided unless, as I mentioned previously, you're on a long journey (150-200 miles minimum) or you're breaking the speed limit by a country mile. If not then you're saving a matter of minutes, nothing more.

Ok I hear you and believe I understand what you were saying. It's not as clear cut as that. It is partly my opinion and I saw the miguided comment as a knock against efficient fast progress (which nescessitates speed). This doesn't have to be in any way unsafe to you or other road users (and should NEVER be). Therefore I took it as you calling me misguided by practising this. By driving efficiently with high awareness and safe appropriate speeds, huge time is saved and money. I do this a lot and realise it a lot. Unfortunately not everyone drives efficiently at all so you can frequently be baulked en route.

No harm no foul however imo as these details can again be interpreted so very many ways. Nothing shows like practise.
 
Ok I hear you and believe I understand what you were saying. It's not as clear cut as that. It is partly my opinion and I saw the miguided comment as a knock against efficient fast progress (which nescessitates speed). This doesn't have to be in any way unsafe to you or other road users (and should NEVER be). Therefore I took it as you calling me misguided by practising this. By driving efficiently with high awareness and safe appropriate speeds, huge time is saved and money. I do this a lot and realise it a lot. Unfortunately not everyone drives efficiently at all so you can frequently be baulked en route.

No harm no foul however imo as these details can again be interpreted so very many ways. Nothing shows like practise.

What I've learned in my motoring career, is that you simply cannot save a great deal of time on our roads unless you're really going for it. I'm not bringing in safety to this discussion at this time, I'm simply pointing out that drivers who speed tend to do so for one of two reasons. They either like to drive fast, or they're under the assumption that by doing so they are getting to their destination much quicker than if they kept to the limit. I focused my post on the second group who are, frankly, kidding themselves if they think they're saving more time than it takes to boil a few eggs.....unless, as I stated earlier, the journey is considerable or they're prepared to really tank it.
Average speed over distance is hard to keep and easy to lose.
 
Average speed over distance is hard to keep and easy to lose.

What I know personally is that average speed is easy to maintain. So we differ. The 43.2 mph everywhere (including 30 zones etc) brigade notwithstanding. And no, I don't advocate excess speed eg over 60 or 70 as those limits apply. On the record I do up to the limits applicable and maybe a little more here and there on an average day.

If I am in a very rare hurry for any reason it becomes GLF mode, and that is not a place you would enjoy at all I can promise you. Speed is no fun on our country roads as it takes major concentration and I don't seek that.
 
They either like to drive fast, or they're under the assumption that by doing so they are getting to their destination much quicker than if they kept to the limit. I focused my post on the second group who are, frankly, kidding themselves if they think they're saving more time than it takes to boil a few eggs.....unless, as I stated earlier, the journey is considerable or they're prepared to really tank it.
Average speed over distance is hard to keep and easy to lose.

Define "really tank it", are you talking 100 on the motorway or 130+?

Even if it's just doing 90 instead of 70, that still knocks about 40 minutes off a 200 mile trip.

You also need to take into account the knock-on effects of arriving early, for example if I'm intending to do the M42, from the A14/M1/M6 junction to the M5 junction then the time savings that can be achieved by arriving at 2:45 rather than 3:00 are quite noticible, so my speed down the A14 may have only gained me 10 minutes on that road, but it'll also gain me about half an hour on the M42, which in turn means I'll get a better run on the A40 which tends to get long tailbacks (eg. at the traffic lights by Monmouth) at certain times of the day.

Of course, that game works both ways, there are other runs where I will drive below the limit (or just go an sit off in the services) because I know if I go any faster I'm just going to be sat in the stationary queue for much longer and whilst I may gain 5 or 10 minutes vs joining the queue much later on, it's not worth it for the annoyance of being sat in a queue.

I guess my point is that there's more to it than just how many minutes one particular blast of speed may save you. For me the difference is typically a couple of hours, and since I dont live on my own, and dont get paid overtime, it's pretty important, not to mention that if I'm still on the road by about 10PM I'm far from being at my best in terms of performance and observation.
 
Average speed over distance is hard to keep and easy to lose.

Is it? I manage it fine every day.

Define "really tank it", are you talking 100 on the motorway or 130+?

Even if it's just doing 90 instead of 70, that still knocks about 40 minutes off a 200 mile trip.

You also need to take into account the knock-on effects of arriving early, for example if I'm intending to do the M42, from the A14/M1/M6 junction to the M5 junction then the time savings that can be achieved by arriving at 2:45 rather than 3:00 are quite noticible, so my speed down the A14 may have only gained me 10 minutes on that road, but it'll also gain me about half an hour on the M42, which in turn means I'll get a better run on the A40 which tends to get long tailbacks (eg. at the traffic lights by Monmouth) at certain times of the day.

Of course, that game works both ways, there are other runs where I will drive below the limit (or just go an sit off in the services) because I know if I go any faster I'm just going to be sat in the stationary queue for much longer and whilst I may gain 5 or 10 minutes vs joining the queue much later on, it's not worth it for the annoyance of being sat in a queue.

I guess my point is that there's more to it than just how many minutes one particular blast of speed may save you. For me the difference is typically a couple of hours, and since I dont live on my own, and dont get paid overtime, it's pretty important, not to mention that if I'm still on the road by about 10PM I'm far from being at my best in terms of performance and observation.

thumbs up to this post. all very valid points.

Sitting in a services to "miss" sitting in traffic jam is a great one, a lot less stressful. Similarly i took a 30minute detour because i knew if i joined the M25 at the M20 id be stuck in traffic all the way to the bridge, but if i drove through some nice B/C roads with nice villages and join the M25 30minutes later via the M2 the traffic would have eased, and would be less stressful. Forward planning is a must. Its why the variable speed limit system on the m25/M1 is in place, try and slow down people joining the queues. If i know there's a jam ahead id slow down because id rather be moving at 50mph (i don't like holding lorries up so will go 56-60 if i need to) than sitting in traffic. Problem is, most people don't understand traffic flow and rather steam at full speed right into the jam, and its solely the reason that the outside lane ends up being the first to stop, while the inside lane with slower traffic tends to keep flowing longer.
 
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Problem is, most people don't understand traffic flow and rather steam at full speed right into the jam, and its solely the reason that the outside lane ends up being the first to stop, while the inside lane with slower traffic tends to keep flowing longer.

Some people justify this on the grounds that it will overall get them home quicker. The argument is that at any point and at any time there could be an incident on the motorway. You have no control over when and where they happen so they're pretty much fixed events that happen regardless, however if you got there 5 minutes earlier, said incident may not have happened yet and instead will happen behind you.

I can see the point and there is truth in it, but it usually seems to be made by the stereotypical BMW driving ****hole that likes to tailgate and bully people on the motorways and has probably caused (albiet indirectly) more of such incidents than they have avoided by driving like this.


There is one other point to add to the point in my previous post, however, in my case if you play the timing game to get to your destination earlier the improvement is actually at least double what I've described above. Why? because my job has me drive to a customer site, figure out how they've managed to break their software or hardware this time, fix it and bugger off home again. You can pretty much assume that this will take a fixed period of time (unless you arrive between 11 and 1 when you can guarantee that the person who actually broke it will be at lunch and will have locked their workstation with unsaved documents open) so the extra hour you gained getting there translates to an extra hour leaving which once again can make or break your chance of getting past the West Midlands before it all clogs up.

On more complex jobs it can also make the difference between going home at the end, or having to stay out overnight.
 
Define "really tank it", are you talking 100 on the motorway or 130+?.
Anything up from a ton really. Basically upto and beyond the point where you're only going to get 3 points and a £60 fine if you're caught.
Even if it's just doing 90 instead of 70, that still knocks about 40 minutes off a 200 mile trip.
Just over 34 by my reckoning, and that's assuming you can average 90 and 70 respectively. For the purposes of calculations, you also need to bear in mind that these are actual, not indicated, speeds that you'll have to hit. Actual 90mph is going to be close to an indicated ton, and actual 70mph is going to be an indicated 75mph or so.
So, to average 90mph (actual) over 200 miles you're going to have to hit 100mph more than once. You also need to take into account that unless this is a time trial from motorway service station to service station, the beginning and end of the journey is going to involve some urban driving which will make your average speed plummet.
Is it? I manage it fine every day.
To make any sense of this, a little more detail is required.....don't you think?
 
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