Starting a career in I.T without a degree?

[Brumboy]

Hi there,

I'm interested in a career in I.T. I've been doing some research but everyone has a different opinion and various other articles and posts are old so I want to get some current information from people directly in the field.

I don't have a degree but I am highly capable and passionate about starting a career in I.T.

I have read quite a bit about DBA's and how that can be a good path to go down. It does look interesting and that could definitely be something I would want to pursue.

I know I'm asking broad questions but basically:

1. Does having no degree make my chances slim to none in getting a career in I.T?

2. Will I need to go to university or can I learn enough skills and knowledge through college courses, online learning and qualifications?

3. Are there any particular I.T jobs that are good for people wanting to start out in the industry and get their foot in the door? I assume some companies take on complete beginners with potential and train them up?

4. I am currently in Thailand for the next 6-8 months so I have a lot of spare time and I thought this would be the perfect way to study languages such as SQL, is this a good idea?

5. Apart from SQL which other computer languages are good to learn to get my CV looked at by any I.T companies or recruitment agencies?

I've read a few threads in this section and you guys seem to be very helpful and understanding so I hope I can get some valuable information and get an idea of where to start in this industry!

Kind regards

Ross

 

[Brumboy]

You don't need a degree, it helps, but definitely by no means mandatory. When starting at the bottom you can do well to show interest and a willingness to learn by studying off your own back.

That's good to know. I don't mind starting at the bottom as long as there is a chance I can progress through the ranks so to speak. It would be a challenge!

 

[Brumboy]

You don't need a degree but it does help.

At the beginning it can get doors opened for you, or get employers to look at your CV.

Sometimes a prerequisite for a job might be a degree, but even then with the right skills and experience they may be willing to over look. Even if you find in the future you cant apply for jobs that have this prerequisite there are still loads and loads out there.

What area of IT are you interested in?

Do you want to do web development, programming, databases, infrastructure, networking etc etc....

Yeah I had a quick scan on Reed (don't know how good that is for I.T jobs though) and most require a degree so that will be an obstacle in the future.

That's good to know that there are loads of jobs I can still apply for without a degree, it's the one thing that made me a bit worried about starting a career in I.T.

To be honest I'm not 100% sure, I think I'm quite analytical and I would say that I am a perfectionist, I enjoy working with numbers and making sure everything is correct. As far as what I've looked at, DBA would be an option and possibly networking.

Which area of I.T would be a good one to go down? including wage, rate of progression, amount of jobs available etc

 

[Brumboy]

As above.

Also, go enjoy Thailand, make the most of it while you're there.

If you wanted to get straight in to programming for example, then a specific course would help, but if you're happy to start at the bottom on support or as an apprentice or whatever, then you can do that as well.

Yeah I am, I'm just starting to prepare for when I go back

I don't mind starting in I.T support, but just to be sure they don't require a degree or any previous experience?

I have worked in a school where I was technically their I.T technician as in I fixed most I.T problems that came up and they rarely had to call in outside help. I was a teaching assistant back then though and just offered my help, nothing official.

 

[Brumboy]

no



you don't *need* to in most areas but it can be useful to have a degree in quite a few areas



as a non-grad with no experience then the obvious area to point at would be support

alternatively if you were to learn to program and started making your own apps etc.. then maybe you could land a junior dev role at some small firm



having lots of spare time is perhaps good if you want to learn stuff, is being in Thailand 'perfect'? Dunno - depends how well you learn and what distractions there might be. Take a look at udacity and their nanodegrees perhaps. www.udacity.com



SQL is more of a special purpose language, as for what languages are good to get your CV looked at - most general ones are if you're good! Tis probably a good idea to know at least one of C#/Java/Python/C++ it can also be nice to have some exposure to a functional language.

Yeah everyone says support is a good place to start. Which job websites are good to go through for I.T jobs and do you have any tips to tailor my CV towards a I.T support job?

Basically my girlfriend and I are going to be living in Thailand for at least 6 months, she's teaching English and I'm training Muay Thai. So I have spare time in the afternoon and since I have no job to go back to in England I thought it would be a good idea to make use of the spare time I have and prepare myself for a job when I go back.

I have a basic laptop but can buy a desktop computer if needed.

What online materials are useful to start learning SQL? As that's the language I keep reading in articles and I assume DBA is a good path to go down?

I've checked out Udemy and Codeacademy and they seem good, I'll check out udacity, thanks!

 

[Brumboy]

If that was me, I'd just be enjoying my surroundings and taking everything I could out of that experience and time, it's not going to happen everyday.

You don't need a degree in IT, I don't have one. Some certs can help, completely job dependent. Skills help.

What certs do you recommend?

The major problem these days is that a lot of places use degrees as the first filter to get rid of CVs due to the shear amount of people that apply for some jobs.
I've not used a single thing I learnt on my degree since I started in IT 4 years ago but without it my first boss would have binned my CV straight away.

Yeah that is still my worry but it is still possible right?

Do you have any tips?

 

[Brumboy]

@ Radderfire

Awesome!

I've read a few articles regarding SQL and how the language is always in demand and needed so I thought that would be a good path to go down.

But since I have no degree or experience in I.T, I wouldn't have a clue where to start to become a DBA.

Is it a case of learning SQL to a good standard, then somehow proving my capabilities, gaining some certs and then applying for DBA jobs? Or is there another route to take to become one?

I know what you mean about foot in the door jobs but having no degree or experience am I left with any other option when starting out?

 

[Brumboy]

Generalising massively here, you can do just fine in IT without a degree as experience often will be more valuable.

However you need to build up that experience and start off somewhere, and a degree may well be a requirement for an entry level position so it ends up as a bit of a catch 22 situation.

I'm sure there are plenty of routes into an IT entry level role without a degree, it may involve a role that's not directly what you are aiming for but will be a step to get you there.

Again that's something my mind keeps going over but if I can avoid 3 years of uni then I will do everything I can to avoid that! I would much rather work an entry level job and gain experience and contacts while self studying in my own time.

I hope that is a realistic plan, what do you say?

 

[Brumboy]

I wouldn't yet - I'd figure out what you want to do first as you're also talking about learning SQL, learning to program, becoming a DBA etc..

Having said that familiarity with SQL + some basic knowledge of networking and being familiar with unix/linux (basic command line stuff) is all you really need for a lot of first line application support roles. Familiarity with Excel and a little bit of VBA is also useful for functional support issues where numerical data is involved.

Lots of the work in that field essentially involves searching log files and/or querying databases in order to conduct some initial analysis of the issue before either providing a brief workaround or explanation of why there isn't an issue with the software or documenting and raising a change request for development(or raising a ticket with the vendor if you're at a client rather than a vendor). Essentially you're the first point of contact, you pick up the phone and speak to the client(or the user if you're in an internal support team) and you do the initial analysis and deal with most issues, in some cases there might be a 'second line' person or some specialist in a particular area for more complicated tickets in other cases it might just be the developer who wrote that bit of code or the product manager responsible for that area. (Or it might just be the vendor's support team if you're employed by a client.) Things to emphasize aside from SQL, unix, general technical literacy (maybe demonstrated with a few certs if you've got no experience) are general customer facing skills. Any examples where you've had to work under pressure, deal with people, handle multiple tasks etc.. basically you want to show you're analytical, well organised and can deal with people.

There are of course other support roles that could involve anything from supporting desktop PCs or phone systems or servers and network infrastructure etc.. they all have different requirements.

In terms of jobs linked in, contacting recruiters on there (via groups or otherwise) is probably worth a shot these days, though maybe better as something to keep up to date with once you've got your first job. For a first entry level role the big jobsites are probably worth looking at monster, indeed, jobsite, cwjobs.. and the big recruiters reed, hays, michael page etc..



well more than just SQL you ought to understand databases - for a start there are these:

https://www.coursera.org/course/db

https://www.udacity.com/course/intro-to-relational-databases--ud197

there are plenty of online guides etc.. a reference book might be useful too (O'Reilly tend to be OK for this sort of thing)

maybe this free course for an intro to linux too:

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-linux-linuxfoundationx-lfs101x-0

then again if you were to go for a desktop support role instead of application support then perhaps you'd want to study for something like the comptia A+ and Network+ quals (actually network+ is probably useful for support in general) and then some Microsoft or Cisco certs

http://www.professormesser.com/free...ssers-free-220-70x-comptia-a-training-course/

http://www.professormesser.com/netw...omptia-network-certification-training-course/

There are so many different areas of I.T that it is a bit hard to choose one path right now. Although I do keep mentioning SQL, only because of what I've read.

But as I said in my post above - I don't know exactly how to become one.

If I could get a clear picture of the steps to take in order to become one that would be great.

For example:

1. Learn SQL to a good standard
2. Learn how to show that to employers
3. Gain some official certs (Comptia A+?)
4. Apply for 1st line support jobs
5. Work there while still learning SQL and gaining certs
6. Hopefully get promoted to 2nd line support or have enough SQL knowledge and certs to apply for DBA jobs

Is that a sensible plan to become a DBA? This is just what I've gathered from different threads

Your job description of 1st line support is very detailed and helpful. I could definitely do that as a stepping stone if it is definitely required. I have had plenty of jobs that involve customer support and working under pressure so that won't be a problem.

Thanks for the links I'll check them out!

You've all been a great help so far, I am amazed at the information you're giving,it's super helpful

 

[Brumboy]

Basically I'm looking for a realistic career path within the I.T industry that has bright prospects and a good salary, but that doesn't require a degree and can be obtained through self studying, gaining certs and experience in entry level jobs (I.T support).

I found this helpful page listing some pros and cons of a few I.T roles and out of those software developer seems to be the most attractive - https://www.quora.com/What-career-path-should-I-take-DBA-sysadmin-software-networking

And this certification website detailing career paths and which certs are needed to get to that job - https://certification.comptia.org/why-certify/roadmap

I'm not sure how reliable that website above is as they are selling their products and obviously advertising.

What would be the logical steps in order to become a software developer?

I know learning a language should obviously be the first step but which one? Java, JavaScript, Ruby, Python, C++?

Sorry for the amount of questions, there is just so much information out there and many different I.T career paths to choose from, it can get a bit tough to pick!

 

[Brumboy]

I'd work out if you enjoy programming first, before doing anything else. Writing software isn't a job, it's a way of life - you have to really love it, if you don't you'll get left behind, then hate it.

It's also not something you can just "pick up". On-line learning is fine, but no substitute for a decent mentor.

The best route is probably start here:

https://www.pythonanywhere.com/

Get yourself an account, and start working through this:

https://coderbyte.com/course/learn-python-in-one-week

You, obviously, will NOT learn python in one week, but you'll have some of the basic building blocks of the language and understand the concepts.

Then you need to start looking at how software is developed within organisations, so start by taking a look at one of the more popular ways; Scrum:

http://www.scrumguides.org/

Which is a specific implementation of a set of principles defined as "Agile";

http://agilemethodology.org

Whatever you pick, you HAVE to enjoy doing it, otherwise it'll destroy your soul.

You have a point. I have never programmed in my life, it does seem interesting though and I will look into these links and see how I feel about it, I was researching for a while today about which language to start and many people point to Python so I will look at that in a few days, thanks for the links mate.

I agree, picking a career path in I.T which I enjoy is a top priority.

 

[Brumboy]

You need a lot more information before deciding on which career path you want to go down, and to be honest I think that although you state you have a passion for starting a career in IT, if I were you I would ask the question "Why?". You have no experience, and seemingly little knowledge of the industry, so ask yourself the question, what draws you to IT over other things? A general interest in computers, or do you possess specific skills that you think would make you a success in the industry?

Moving on from the general "Why IT?" question, I would forget specifically nailing down a "career path" for yourself at the moment, as you don't know what each role really involves and as a result how you much you would enjoy or well you would perform each role. The career paths you state are vastly different, it really is like someone saying "I want a career in sports, should I become a marathon runner or a power lifter?"; only you can answer that question, and at the moment it's absolutely OK to not know the answer. A lack of direction is completely natural, and if anything a good thing as you will be open to all avenues as you learn more about the industry going forward.

Going forward then, you need to immerse yourself, any way will do. Whether this is in industry in a "foot in the door" job, or by going to university, either will allow you to immerse yourself and explore the options available. University is more than just a bit of paper at the end, and a foot in the door job is more than just being able to put "X years experience" on your CV.

I know I do, that's why I ask so many questions! There's just too much information out there about each different job within I.T that it can be a bit crazy.

I have always had a passion for computers & technology ever since my parents bought a desktop PC. I've always been the guy my friends & family turn too for any PC/tablet/phone/printer/network problems and I enjoy solving problems. The biggest regret in my life is not looking into this when I finished sixth form as I had a natural interest and computers were like second nature to me. But it's not too late and I'm extremely passionate about it. In fact I am excited!

I don't have much knowledge about the I.T industry yeah but that's because I've never looked into it as being a possible career for myself. Now after many years of doing different jobs I find myself reverting back to my natural interest of computers.

I admit I didn't know much about any of the roles mentioned but I've done some reading about them and have a better understanding of them. The one site I linked too had some helpful information about each role and from that, software developing sounded the most interesting to me.

Saying that I am still not 100% sure about which specific career path within I.T so I will still ask a few questions if you guys don't mind.

Going forward, since I'm in Thailand and can't really apply for jobs yet, what can I do in the mean time?

I can start learning Python, I can dedicate a few hours each day to that and see if I enjoy that.

But back to software developing. From what I've read a degree isn't required, but a very good understanding of at least two languages is. Aswell as being able to showcase my skills through websites like Github and contributions to open source projects.

If I were to pursue this path what would be the logical steps towards a software developing job within the next few years?

I appreciate the help as always guys, it's been really interesting for me to read your replies.

 

[Brumboy]

For the kind of things you are thinking of, I don't think an entry level job in IT Support is necessarily the right thing. There are such things as entry level jobs in coding and database administration. If you search on job sites such as indeed.co.uk, you will sometimes find apprenticeship roles for developers, but they don't pay very well.

I think a key decision you need to make early on is whether you prefer being a database administrator, which is more a server maintenance type role, and more providing IT support to an organisation, or a coder, which is more perhaps of an intellectual challenge and perhaps involves more study and a real passion for coding.

DBA is more keeping things running smoothly, managing backups, problem solving, able to recover systems when things go wrong, perhaps more team working based. Coder is more of a project type role, and perhaps requires more raw ability to be really good at it. Coder is perhaps less of a team based role too.

There are also sites like PeoplePerHour.com where you may be able to find small remote jobs which you can use to build up your experience.

I.T support has been suggested to a lot of newbies in the I.T industry without a degree or experience so I naturally thought that was the best option for me.

Entry level jobs in coding and database administration sounds perfect and better than I.T support. I will check up on job sites to see the requirements and see if I can give myself a head start by learning Python for the next few months. Hopefully if that goes well I can apply for an entry level coding job when I get back to England and start from there.

Pay isn't important at the moment, I would much rather have the opportunity to work as an entry level coder since the experience will be far more valuable than money at that time.

I still haven't found concrete information regarding DBA and some websites say that a few years experience within a I.T role is required to even apply aswell as extensive knowledge of SQL. I will still keep it in mind though.

 

[Brumboy]

Just to offer a different perspective, bright prospects and good salary do not necessarily correlate. I have a few acquaintances that are COBOL developers, they are very much left behind, they have arguably no prospects, but they are paid exceptionally well because they're some of the few people that can keep a decades old system operational.

Conversely, a lot of people want to work in "hot" and "new" technologies, some of which pay next to nothing since so many people are willing to do the job. The average web developer with HTML5, PHP, Javascript, "new XYZ" stack will probably be paid less than the average COBOL developer by some way.

I know what you mean. I guess I just want a stable career with a decent salary like most of us lol

 

[Brumboy]

Without a degree, I think you're unlikely to get a job as a DBA straight off the bat. I think a lot transition across from doing more general server support roles having got exposure to doing some database support.

It is worth noting that DBA roles can vary dependent on the organisation. Some will just be administrators who prepare/update environments, restore and configure databases and permissions, schedule jobs, monitor alerts, performance tuning etc and rarely actually write much SQL beyond a few common repeatable statements. So having IT experience and knowledge of SQL alone isn't going to necessarily make you suited to be a DBA. Having good SQL knowledge will open up some other potential doors such as MI Analyst, ETL Developer and so forth however.

I'm not expecting to get any DBA job with just some SQL knowledge don't worry lol

Yeah that's why I'm trying to figure out if it's best to go for a support role and transition into what I'm interested in from there OR if I enjoy learning Python for example then I can see if there are any trainee/entry software developer roles.

I don't know how often those trainee software developer jobs come up though.

I see, experience seems to be king, which will be the biggest obstacle.

 

[Brumboy]

The sort of support role I've described (application support) is a bit different to the sort of desktop support role that comptia A+ would likely lead to and in a desktop support/helpdesk type role you might well have much less need for SQL and database knowledge. Others would be better placed to comment.

Some more info on careers from the perspective of a vendor/software house:

The natural progression from app support is to second line (if it exists) and then potentially team lead, and CS management roles or to technical account management roles (which often fall under client services/support) DBAs are fewer in number though you could try to focus on database related tickets/issues and build relations with existing DBAs - they tend to be present in the department when the company offers some sort of hosted - software as a service solution to clients.

other roles such as becoming a dev, BA or consultant are achievable but will require you to work/push for them as you'll often have to move to another department so will need two senior managers to agree to the move

progression from those roles can then be

consultant -> project management or account management

BA -> dev manager or product manager

Developer -> dev manager

all three -> pre-sales

and lateral moves between all three are possible

Just remember that progression isn't a certanty - for example if you've spent 3 years in support but your documentation/specs that end up in development are low quality then no dev manager is going to give you a shot as a BA.

As a general rule when you want to change careers you might find it better to do so internally where you can prove yourself(i.e. building relationships with key people, making your specs stand out if you want to be a BA or delving into the code, writing more technical specs if you want to be a developer). External moves are useful if you want an increase in pay (and sometimes responsibility) but you're an unknown quantity so likely to only get roles roughly the same field as your current one.



It isn't definitely required - it is just one possible option out of many. It might be better to try and land a junior dev role from the start if that is what you really really want.



no worries, I've taken some time off work due to a health issue so can quite easily write a long rambling post.. if you want specific details on any of the above careers then just say so and I'll post more... (albeit it is partly personal opinion and based on personal experience - not all roles are the same at all firms)

So you're saying that even if I want to become a software developer or a DBA, I can access those career paths through support roles within a company? as well as other I.T roles

I understand, networking can be just as important and that will be a key thing to do within any company.

To be honest after doing further reading developing seems more achievable for me personally and the job sounds interesting. I like the idea of working a various amount of companies each different from the last (general computer software, games, apps etc).

1. What would be the best steps for me to take in the next year or so in order to obtain a software developer job (realistically of course)?

2. Would learning Python over the next year be the best first step?

Ah hope you get better mate! Go ahead I need all the information I need at the moment lol

That sounds perfect! It is super useful having you guys here to help me and other people. You're making a big difference without knowing!

 

[Brumboy]

Also, the best way to learn to be a developer is to build a project. So, read up on websites, read books, then build something yourself. Get some hosting and build a basic application.

When deciding what to build, think how it could be used to prove to an employer you have the skills they are looking for.

When you say project do you mean a simple piece of software like a media player or calculator or a simple game?

 

[Brumboy]

If you think you might ever want to be an application developer, don't learn Python or Perl as your first language. I think it encourages too many bad habits and hides too much complexity. Start with C# or Java like all undergraduates programmes do.

I understand. I just keep reading about Python being a good language to learn to understand concepts and theories.

Wouldn't C# or Java be a bit tough to learn as someone with zero knowledge on computer languages?

 

[Brumboy]

No.

Good to know

Rossuk89 if you want to have a bash at programming there are lots of free courses from some of the best Uni's in the world.

You could check out cs50 for a beginner course -

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-computer-science-harvardx-cs50x

Awesome I'll watch that video and read into it further.

There is so much information about it's hard to pick which ones to actually follow. On this thread alone there is loads of links and courses etc

You guys recommend CodeAcademy too as that is another popular one from what I can see?

 

[Brumboy]

sorry, forgot to reply to this



At some companies, yes. I'm not taking about support in general but specifically application support where you'll interact a lot with developers etc..



I'm not sure what would necessarily be best but if I were in your situation I'd probably look at some EDX/Coursera/Udacity certificates - maybe one of the Udacity Nanodegrees would be worth a look as they also have a career service and involve building a bunch of projects you could then show to an employer. You could then look at working on some personal projects too and publishing them... I can't say for sure but that ought to at least land you an interview somewhere for some junior role.

As for language I think any of Java, Python and C# initially would be fine - you might be constrained intiially by whatever the MOOC certificate you chose to pursue uses anyway. I'd also get various basic technical skills up to scratch - learn about databases, networking etc..

Yeah I know now, that will be an option too, basically since I'm starting at the bottom anything will be a step up.

Are these paid courses worth it though? I mean there's enough free information/courses/video/lectures about that I was hoping I could avoid paying for a course and learn a lot of what I need from those free materials.

But you also mentioned EDX too which other people in this thread have approved too, that course is free correct but the certificate you have to buy?

See people say Python is a good beginner language as it is easy to read. But that it's not always a required language by companies.

But then you have Java and C# which are also popular.

I just want to learn the one that will most likely land me a junior developer role and get me an interview to be honest.