Still a QC lottery in Jan '17?

[eddiew]

Hey peeps,

Just wondering what everyone's recent experiences have been regarding backlight bleed, dead pixels and other imperfections in larger screens (27-32" mainly).

Basically I've been frozen into purchasing-immobility for the last 18 months because everything on the market seems to be... well, crap, compared to my reliable old 24" units.

T'interweb is full of photos of yellow corners and manufacturers saying it isn't a problem. Well... it'll be a problem for me, because such things will drive me mad. I do digital illustration work, and I won't put up with nonsense like colour variances or brightness bands or whatever else they want to say is "normal". Even Dell's warranty doesn't cover BLB

Curious to hear your tales of woe/joy!

 

[Nerusy]

In the same boat, ordered 34 curved VA monitor from Samsung and now returning it due to dust behind the screen.

I like the monitor a lot but not sure if I will re-buy it as I do not want to go into this dead pixel / dust lottery again.

BLB issues with IPS is why I do not even consider IPS as an option (yet another lottery) even though all I ever had was TN monitor.

Its quite tricky to get a new monitor nowadays, its always a trade off rather than all round perfect monitor.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

The current trend is that it still going downwards with continuous push for more resolution/refresh without major breakthroughs in underlying tech and also aggressive pricing.
In regards to above most manufacturers found that its viable strategy to concentrate on "mainstream" market (read - people who don't know better and will accept sub-par panels).

 

[Montieous]

I'm planning on buying an AOC AG271QX in the next few weeks (reviews appear to be good in regards to QC)

This will be my 3rd attempt of a monitor in the last 1 and half years, first was an LG 27" IPS that could only serve as a corner lamp (the BLB was that bad and has put me of IPS panels for life!) and the 2nd was a IIyama 40" 4k VA panel monitor, which had a red stuck pixel centre of screen and also pretty bad back light bleed, quite shocking for a VA panel.

My now 12 year old Dell 2405 seemingly can't be beat in terms of quality, even with it's yellowing back light and humming capacitors.

Wish me luck!

 

[eddiew]

This will be my 3rd attempt of a monitor in the last 1 and half years...

My now 12 year old Dell 2405 seemingly can't be beat in terms of quality, even with it's yellowing back light and humming capacitors.

Basically that's my situation. I have a 2407 and a 2x 2412s, and all of them are flawless. The '07 has the best colour range, but it runs so hot that I swapped it with a '12 from work last summer.

I would never buy a TN though, can't use a 6-bit panel for graphics work... which leaves me with IPS or VA. IPS clearly has issues above 24", and nobody seems to have done a really good VA panel yet. If it has a decent refresh rate, it's 1080p, if it's 32" it's 60hz and has brightness stripes. Found one customer review of the new HP Omen that shows the thing has backlight bleed. VA isn't supposed to get backlight bleed!

Oh well, thanks for the info, all. Guess I'm going to wait for the next big thing, OLED or Quantum Dot or whatever it ends up being. Think I'll stop wasting my time even hoping for the current gen to mature.

 

[Rroff]

Many of the new more expensive gaming TNs and 4K TNs are true 8bit panels (infact some are even 10bit but kind of pointless as they are all but if not impossible to utilise properly as a 10bit panel) rather than 6bit w/ FRC as per older panels - though obviously you have gamma shift/viewing angles to deal with which isn't ideal for image editing, etc.

The other option for image editing work is PLS which is very close to IPS but generally the monitors using it are aimed a the more professional market so tend to be of higher quality - atleast in my limit experience of Samsung PLS.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

Found one customer review of the new HP Omen that shows the thing has backlight bleed. VA isn't supposed to get backlight bleed!

Common misconception that "VA is immune to BLB". VA gets BLB, that being bad uniformity of black, exactly the same way as IPS (due to bad light diffuser tolerances), its just less visible because of lower black levels of VA and being shifted to blueish colors (which eye less sensitive to).

generally the monitors using it are aimed a the more professional market so tend to be of higher quality

Sadly, while pro monitors still being higher quality in optical regard, they affected by overall downward trend all the same (since they mostly use same panel sources, only with somewhat stricter binning/QC).
I would estimate modern day pro monitor being approximately on same level of optical quality that consumer level monitor was ~3-4 years ago.

 

[eddiew]

Many of the new more expensive gaming TNs and 4K TNs are true 8bit panels...

The other option for image editing work is PLS...

Didn't know about new TN... will investigate, but I have a suspicion it won't really suit me.

I can only find PLS options that are 60hz and/or 1080p, so tbh doesn't really have any advantage over what I'm using, aside from being a couple of inches wider. Not really worth springing the money on, imo.

...I miss S-PVA, as used in the old Dells. Ok, it smeared a bit in games, but the colour range and accuracy was superb and BLB just wasn't a thing with them.

 

[Montieous]

Basically that's my situation. I have a 2407 and a 2x 2412s, and all of them are flawless. The '07 has the best colour range, but it runs so hot that I swapped it with a '12 from work last summer.

I would never buy a TN though, can't use a 6-bit panel for graphics work... which leaves me with IPS or VA. IPS clearly has issues above 24", and nobody seems to have done a really good VA panel yet. If it has a decent refresh rate, it's 1080p, if it's 32" it's 60hz and has brightness stripes. Found one customer review of the new HP Omen that shows the thing has backlight bleed. VA isn't supposed to get backlight bleed!

Oh well, thanks for the info, all. Guess I'm going to wait for the next big thing, OLED or Quantum Dot or whatever it ends up being. Think I'll stop wasting my time even hoping for the current gen to mature.

Almost identical situation

Like Rroff mentioned above, a lot of the newer TN panels are 8bit and probably will beat my 2405 for colour accuracy and perhaps even contrast. (Assuming it's a good unit)

I've been waiting for OLED or equivalents for what feels like forever but considering the price inflation for even Quantum Dot monitors (never mind QLED) I'm clearly going to be priced out for the first 5+ years of such monitors.

There is some 31.5" 1440p 144Hz VA and 35" ultrawide 1440p 144Hz VA panels in production (I think they were stated Q1 2017) so they'll start to appear in monitors in the next several months. I wouldn't expect such monitors to be less than £800 though

 

[eddiew]

Tbh, I don't mind paying £800 for a good 30" or larger panel - but it has to have good quality control. You can't sell me something at that price, then say the glows in the corners are normal and "how the technology works". It isn't, because my 24" monitors say otherwise. If the technology doesn't scale, then the technology sucks and changes are required.

I'll keep an eye on the VA screens. Maybe they'll actually be prepared to address the BLB issues if it's a whole new panel anyway! Surely there must be enough returns going on for the manufacturers to actually want to solve the QC issues? :/

 

[eddiew]

...
I would estimate modern day pro monitor being approximately on same level of optical quality that consumer level monitor was ~3-4 years ago.

Yeah, I picked up an Illyama "professional" screen about 14 months ago, and sent it back due to appalling light bleed. I refuse to accept "precise, accurate colours" on the spec sheet when 20% of the screen is discoloured due to the BLB!

Biggest problem is that I've sent monitors back to all the online retailers I trust, so next purchase I either have to risk sending back a second one to the same place for the same reason as previously, or wait until technology moves on and erases the common problems. Don't want to get blacklisted because I insisted on a product that works properly. Dark times for monitors, tbh. Can't find a single manufacturer that's promoting a premium line of "flawless" screens with guaranteed zero defects

 

[RidingTheFlow]

Surely there must be enough returns going on for the manufacturers to actually want to solve the QC issues? :/

Apparently not enough, most manufacturers insist that returns are still quite a minority and I don't think its entirely just denial.
Also they just keep re-selling these returns until someone accepts them anyway, these tactics deemed more profitable than raising whole quality bar.

 

[eddiew]

Also they just keep re-selling these returns until someone accepts them anyway, these tactics deemed more profitable than raising whole quality bar.

Whole PC hardware industry's rife with it, tbh. One reason that when you get a warranty swap, it tends to come without a box or accessories... it's just one that someone else sent back! Which is probably why there's so many people around here saying "I returned three before I got a good one"... I feel a bit sorry for OCUK and similar vendors, they get stuck in the middle, and it's not their fault that the boxed products in the warehouse have a 20% chance to be a bad unit :/

 

[Rroff]

I wouldn't be so bothered about a refurb if it was a run of the mill monitor and I'd had it for awhile - but many of them deem it quite acceptable just to round-robin customer returns to people when you've bought their "premium" line and its failed/got serious issues out the box or within a short time of ownership which is incredibly bad IMO and why I absolutely refuse to buy Asus any more as they've been one of the worst offenders in my experience.

 

[Panos]

Hey peeps,

Just wondering what everyone's recent experiences have been regarding backlight bleed, dead pixels and other imperfections in larger screens (27-32" mainly).

Basically I've been frozen into purchasing-immobility for the last 18 months because everything on the market seems to be... well, crap, compared to my reliable old 24" units.

T'interweb is full of photos of yellow corners and manufacturers saying it isn't a problem. Well... it'll be a problem for me, because such things will drive me mad. I do digital illustration work, and I won't put up with nonsense like colour variances or brightness bands or whatever else they want to say is "normal". Even Dell's warranty doesn't cover BLB

Curious to hear your tales of woe/joy!

Depends. It looks like LG found the underlying issue with the BLB which was a simple mechanical one, and their 38" monitor is perfect apparently.
pay a visit to the related discussion....
As for the rest, unfortunately depends.

I am happy with the 2730Z, had no issues other than BenQ had to replace the monitor twice in less than two years due to the panel producing flickering......
(indeed I am sarcastic)

 

[RidingTheFlow]

like LG found the underlying issue with the BLB which was a simple mechanical one, and their 38" monitor is perfect apparently.

Oh, please, every LCD factory knows what causes bad black uniformity, and knew for years since LCD tech was in infancy. Its all about polarizer/diffuser mechanical tolerances - and everyone knows how to do it right. But better they do it, more expensive it becomes, so in modern times most decide not to bother. Cost saving, faster manufacturing, welcome to brave new world.

 

[aatu]

Disclaimer:
The following is only how I've personally understood the situation, don't quote me on it.

Anyway, I think you two are talking about different issues. Bad black uniformity (more commonly called "clouding", I think?) is indeed usually caused by defects in the diffuser. Whereas backlight bleed (BLB) is a mechanical assembly error, when the panel and backlight unit are poorly assembled in the chassis, resulting in backlight leaking in the corners and edges. This can for example be a cause of crappy adhesive, or screws that are too tight and are thus bending the plastic, making gaps.

To reiterate:
BLB affects ONLY corners and edges. Diffuser defects affect the whole display area.

Additional note/rant:
Many people even confuse BLB and IPS glow, as they are indeed usually seen in the same areas. But IPS glow is dependent on the viewing angle, whereas BLB is constantly visible in the affected area. This has also given the common misconception that BLB only affects IPS panels. Which is simply not true. Another factor for this misconception is that the BLB is indeed more common with IPS monitors. But that is not because of technological implications of the IPS tech itself, but rather a consequence of fierce competition and the resulting willingness to cut corners to lower costs and thus prices.

Even bigger rant, adding more fuel to the cost saving discussion:
I think that most people don't even realize just how much monitor pricing has come down, relatively speaking. We are now getting bigger sizes, higher resolutions, higher refresh rates, faster response times, lower input lags, lower power consumption (and less heat), thinner bezels and chassis, lighter weight, ergonomic stands, flicker-free, ultra-wides, curved screens, touch screens, G-Sync/FreeSync, higher bit-depth, HDR -- heck, we even had 3D come and go in the middle, just to be re-awakened by VR --, yet we still demand even lower prices.

The technological advances were quite stale for a long time, which allowed the manufacturing to mature in peace, which in turn enabled prices to go down. But then the situation kind of blew up, and manufacturers started scrambling to different directions. A single advancement would have been tolerable in pricing, but if we're combining multiple (or all) advances to a single unit, then the costs will naturally rise, accordingly. But customers were already accustomed to the lower prices, and aren't willing to follow suit.

But like they say: "Something's gotta give."
And this time around, it's quality control.

 

[llamadal]

I don't understand the whole "hold off" mentality.

If you buy something and it has problems, return it and move on. I personally know about 20 people with the rog swift for example, only 1 of this group has had issues (first swap was bad, second swap was perfect).

Any purchase you make could have issues.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

Disclaimer:
The following is only how I've personally understood the situation, don't quote me on it.

Anyway, I think you two are talking about different issues. Bad black uniformity (more commonly called "clouding", I think?) is indeed usually caused by defects in the diffuser. Whereas backlight bleed (BLB) is a mechanical assembly error, when the panel and backlight unit are poorly assembled in the chassis, resulting in backlight leaking in the corners and edges. This can for example be a cause of crappy adhesive, or screws that are too tight and are thus bending the plastic, making gaps.

To reiterate:
BLB affects ONLY corners and edges. Diffuser defects affect the whole display area.

Well, I obviously was simplifying things, but I know that LCD sheets start coming apart most commonly from corners/edges - simply because they are not making frames stiff enough to maintain integrity (because 1mm good steel is oh so much more expensive than crappy 0.5mm ). Same with whole panel glass and sheets - too thin to hold shape.
What people name "clouding" is really kind of same issue but on the whole bigger area and looks a bit different - but it's same cause and effect, simply more rare-occurring.

Many people even confuse BLB and IPS glow, as they are indeed usually seen in the same areas. But IPS glow is dependent on the viewing angle, whereas BLB is constantly visible in the affected area. This has also given the common misconception that BLB only affects IPS panels. Which is simply not true. Another factor for this misconception is that the BLB is indeed more common with IPS monitors. But that is not because of technological implications of the IPS tech itself, but rather a consequence of fierce competition and the resulting willingness to cut corners to lower costs and thus prices.

Yep, additional A-TW polarizer, which was invented when, 5+ years ago? And perfectly eliminated IPS glow, but was another victim to cost saving. Apparently even for professional market consumers were ready to live with excuse "IPS has good viewing angles, but you have to accept the glow, its inevitable"...

 

[eddiew]

Yep, additional A-TW polarizer, which was invented when, 5+ years ago? And perfectly eliminated IPS glow, but was another victim to cost saving. Apparently even for professional market consumers were ready to live with excuse "IPS has good viewing angles, but you have to accept the glow, its inevitable"...

The sad thing is I'm completely happy to pay more for a better product. Historically I've bought Dell screens, with the associated 100% premium over mainstream panels. I'm hesitant now because:

a) the input lag on their 30" QHD model is quite high. Which I might live with except...
b) their warranty covers dead pixels (great!) but not BLB (bad)

Basically I won't pay a grand for a screen that may or may not have backlight bleed. Put in the component that costs an extra tenner, add it onto the price of the screen, and I will gladly have one.