Still a QC lottery in Jan '17?

[eddiew]

Hey peeps,

Just wondering what everyone's recent experiences have been regarding backlight bleed, dead pixels and other imperfections in larger screens (27-32" mainly).

Basically I've been frozen into purchasing-immobility for the last 18 months because everything on the market seems to be... well, crap, compared to my reliable old 24" units.

T'interweb is full of photos of yellow corners and manufacturers saying it isn't a problem. Well... it'll be a problem for me, because such things will drive me mad. I do digital illustration work, and I won't put up with nonsense like colour variances or brightness bands or whatever else they want to say is "normal". Even Dell's warranty doesn't cover BLB

Curious to hear your tales of woe/joy!

 

[eddiew]

This will be my 3rd attempt of a monitor in the last 1 and half years...

My now 12 year old Dell 2405 seemingly can't be beat in terms of quality, even with it's yellowing back light and humming capacitors.

Basically that's my situation. I have a 2407 and a 2x 2412s, and all of them are flawless. The '07 has the best colour range, but it runs so hot that I swapped it with a '12 from work last summer.

I would never buy a TN though, can't use a 6-bit panel for graphics work... which leaves me with IPS or VA. IPS clearly has issues above 24", and nobody seems to have done a really good VA panel yet. If it has a decent refresh rate, it's 1080p, if it's 32" it's 60hz and has brightness stripes. Found one customer review of the new HP Omen that shows the thing has backlight bleed. VA isn't supposed to get backlight bleed!

Oh well, thanks for the info, all. Guess I'm going to wait for the next big thing, OLED or Quantum Dot or whatever it ends up being. Think I'll stop wasting my time even hoping for the current gen to mature.

 

[eddiew]

Many of the new more expensive gaming TNs and 4K TNs are true 8bit panels...

The other option for image editing work is PLS...

Didn't know about new TN... will investigate, but I have a suspicion it won't really suit me.

I can only find PLS options that are 60hz and/or 1080p, so tbh doesn't really have any advantage over what I'm using, aside from being a couple of inches wider. Not really worth springing the money on, imo.

...I miss S-PVA, as used in the old Dells. Ok, it smeared a bit in games, but the colour range and accuracy was superb and BLB just wasn't a thing with them.

 

[eddiew]

Tbh, I don't mind paying £800 for a good 30" or larger panel - but it has to have good quality control. You can't sell me something at that price, then say the glows in the corners are normal and "how the technology works". It isn't, because my 24" monitors say otherwise. If the technology doesn't scale, then the technology sucks and changes are required.

I'll keep an eye on the VA screens. Maybe they'll actually be prepared to address the BLB issues if it's a whole new panel anyway! Surely there must be enough returns going on for the manufacturers to actually want to solve the QC issues? :/

 

[eddiew]

...
I would estimate modern day pro monitor being approximately on same level of optical quality that consumer level monitor was ~3-4 years ago.

Yeah, I picked up an Illyama "professional" screen about 14 months ago, and sent it back due to appalling light bleed. I refuse to accept "precise, accurate colours" on the spec sheet when 20% of the screen is discoloured due to the BLB!

Biggest problem is that I've sent monitors back to all the online retailers I trust, so next purchase I either have to risk sending back a second one to the same place for the same reason as previously, or wait until technology moves on and erases the common problems. Don't want to get blacklisted because I insisted on a product that works properly. Dark times for monitors, tbh. Can't find a single manufacturer that's promoting a premium line of "flawless" screens with guaranteed zero defects

 

[eddiew]

Also they just keep re-selling these returns until someone accepts them anyway, these tactics deemed more profitable than raising whole quality bar.

Whole PC hardware industry's rife with it, tbh. One reason that when you get a warranty swap, it tends to come without a box or accessories... it's just one that someone else sent back! Which is probably why there's so many people around here saying "I returned three before I got a good one"... I feel a bit sorry for OCUK and similar vendors, they get stuck in the middle, and it's not their fault that the boxed products in the warehouse have a 20% chance to be a bad unit :/

 

[eddiew]

Yep, additional A-TW polarizer, which was invented when, 5+ years ago? And perfectly eliminated IPS glow, but was another victim to cost saving. Apparently even for professional market consumers were ready to live with excuse "IPS has good viewing angles, but you have to accept the glow, its inevitable"...

The sad thing is I'm completely happy to pay more for a better product. Historically I've bought Dell screens, with the associated 100% premium over mainstream panels. I'm hesitant now because:

a) the input lag on their 30" QHD model is quite high. Which I might live with except...
b) their warranty covers dead pixels (great!) but not BLB (bad)

Basically I won't pay a grand for a screen that may or may not have backlight bleed. Put in the component that costs an extra tenner, add it onto the price of the screen, and I will gladly have one.

 

[eddiew]

In fact, when i next come to buy a monitor, i may go for a 4k television as the quality control is so much better on tvs. I've never had to send a tv back.

It's weird that you never see a TV with backlight bleed... Maybe because there are plenty of stores where you can walk round and look at them before you buy, and compare them to the screens next to them.

Monitors are often bought online, unseen, and viewed in isolation, such that people who don't know much about them will just accept whatever tat they're given.

Sad to hear you had issues with Dell though, I thought they were one of (if not the) best :/

 

[eddiew]

Yer, the current lottery has crushed my desire to buy. After three returns at the back end of 2015, I just can't stomach another round of faffing about just to end up not changing again... It's like taking a test drive in car I know I can't afford, just makes me want it more without offering any hope of getting it

 

[eddiew]

It really should be illegal to sell products that vary so much out of the box.

CPUs have their own silicon lottery... but then, you never get a CPU that doesn't work as it says on the box. Even the 'dog' chips can run at above stock speeds, so yeah, why should you get a monitor that has 5-10% of the screen discoloured?

More people need to return bad screens, imho. If 50% of consumers were brave enough to say "no, it's not up to standard, I want my money back," the manufacturers would sort it out pretty quick! Not sure how we've gotten to the state where people accept a monitor with obvious discolourations, but they'd immediately take their new TV back to the store if it had that sort of problem!

 

[eddiew]

...Then if you got a nice Trinitron you were sorted! ...(

Except for those two little dark lines that ran behind the screen xD

Had one for a while, swapped to LCD in the early days, maybe '01 or '02. Awful thing, but at least it didn't give me flicker-headaches!

 

[eddiew]

...Its just that these "standards" are pretty shockingly lax - e.g. its pretty common to state "acceptable uniformity is +-20% in the corners +-15% overall measured in (just) 9 points". So this horribly visible bleed would be indeed well within spec and you can't complain its not up to standard

I take your point, but by "up to standard" I'm thinking the internet sales regs that allow you to return based on a product not being of the expected quality. No picture on any retailer's site shows anything less than a perfect picture, and it wouldn't really be reasonable to expect people to read the datasheets of every product before they buy it, so I suspect the return would have to be authorised. If enough people did it, the problem would soon go away (Not that it isn't disgraceful that the specs are so slack!)

 

[eddiew]

When I bought my Dell 4k screen it came with some sort of calibration test cert.

Dell check for colour accuracy because they're pitching to a professional market. The certificate is your assurance that you don't need to perform any additional calibration yourself Whether they're doing a full-panel test, and whether they're checking for BLB and similar is another question.

My problem with returns is that even I feel like I'm taking the **** with them. I sent back three around Dec '15, to various retailers. I don't want to get branded a serial returner and blacklisted - which is why I'd really like to feel that the industry has improved their production quality :/

 

[eddiew]

It could be broken only if some manufacturer appears who decides to go against common trend and get competing edge based on true premium quality. But there are like 3 large TFT panel factories in the whole world, and AFAIK they all in cahoots with each other (I still remember ~1-2 year old scandal about price fixing).

Yeah, I'm still searching for a monitor manufacturer who jumps in with a truly premium "flawless guarantee" offering... Not that the likes of Dell and NEC are bad, but their smallprint doesn't suggest they have as much faith in their products as the price leads us to believe.

 

[eddiew]

Yeah, that's basically what all the 24" Dells I have access to look like. Range from 2007-2012.

The oldest is actually the best for colours and blacks; S-PVA screen with more than 100% sRGB. Unfortunately it kicks out a ton of heat and has really quite bad smearing. I settled on a 2012er, IPS with 100% sRGB, but less trails in games/media. No noticeable glow or BLB though

 

[eddiew]

...But customers (especially gamers) showed that they'd indeed rather buy a faster £300 eIPS/AH-IPS than a slower £600 H-IPS/P-IPS (IIRC the types)...

The problem there is the way it was presented. "Slower response for more money or faster response for less." Of course everyone opted for the cheaper one, it sounds better and cheaper!

...except that it's only better with regard to the numbers on the box. "1ms response", and "1000:1 contrast" are nice labels and they sound good to Joe Average. Colour/brightness uniformity on the other hand, doesn't fit very well into those box labels, so it got buried and it isn't even mentioned at the point of sale. Result, Joe ended up buying a crapton of monitors which sounded better, but came with their own problems.

Not saying you're wrong about why the market went the way it did, just that I think it was became a race to the bottom, using consumer ignorance to justify itself. We no longer have a state of "let's make the best" but "let's make the cheapest".

What frustrates me most is the lack of choice. As far as I can tell, even the premium manufacturers like NEC, Eizo, and Dell are sourcing their panels from the same place. Ok, they probably get first dibs on the grade-A stock, but when it's a technology that's full of flaws anyway it still doesn't guarantee a good experience. Not one manufacturer seems willing to say "yes, our screens are flawless" at any price

 

[eddiew]

...
I wasn't gonna use Asus RMA but even chatting to them and highlighting quality of screens they really weren't interested in noting issues and forwarding to say a team that may do something.

Yer, and that's basically what scares me off even trying to buy a new screen :/

We can only conclude that all the manufacturers know they're producing tat - but they're so far down the line of cheap at any cost that they can't get back out of that hole. As per post above, they've raced to the bottom on prices because the overall market asked them to, and they can't raise quality without raising the price - which will result in not selling because everyone thinks a 27" screen should only cost £300...

But I don't get how come nobody is making proper good premium panels for the high-end and professional market. Surely there's a niche? I can't be alone in wanting a large screen, with "good enough" response times and "excellent" colour accuracy/uniformity?

 

[eddiew]

Yeah dealing directly with "the rainforest" is the best way of doing it. I fully anticipate not getting a good panel immediately but at least their returns are free. Either I'll get a good one eventually or just give up and get my money back.

Hmm... only returned one to them so far and that was a year ago. Maybe I could risk another punt.

Not wanting to bash OCUK here, but when I did the same with them they were initially a bit resistant to the RMA request and tried to send me to BenQ. Bit nervous to try again, especially with the £1000 Dell that I'm considering.

 

[eddiew]

Not sure how they'd feel about that a year on, I was meaning more just after purchase.

Oh, yeah, at the time it was a "used it for a weekend, hated it" return for refund. But I'm aware they do have such thing as a blacklist for serial returners. So far I've sent back around £700 worth of hardware over the last few years, so I dunno how much further I can push that before it looks like I'm the one at fault...

I don't recall having issues with OcUK specifically but it is annoying when manufacturers and retailers play pass-the-buck with RMAs.

I might not have made it obvious at the time that it was an "dodgy on day one" situation when I first contacted them. When I was clear that I'd like to manage the return through OCUK they agreed straight off. I did however say that if they thought another unit might be better than the one I had, then I'd happily try a replacement - and they chose to refund me.

Obviously not their fault, but it did make me wonder if they were getting a lot of returns on that model and couldn't be arsed with the typical three-swaps debacle from a picky buyer. Can see why retailers wouldn't want to handle it, they're probably as fed up as we are of the QC darkness!

Although maybe... not stocking the problem models would be a more effective protest. Not sure how much influence OCUK would have if they threatened such a thing, but we know there are some company reps check these forums now and then.

 

[eddiew]

I don't understand why people get so weird about backlight bleed, I only notice some glow on black screens and if I don't think about it I'm not to bothered, I do agree that some monitors are very bad for bleed but I've seen some I'd call decent being absolutely criticized.

This was one of mine that went back. The light is on in this room, the camera's just a bit insensitive. There are no reflections in the screen.

I do a lot of graphics work, so having ~20% of the panel discoloured like that was taking the mick. Reading a couple of reviews after the fact, I found it's a model known for BLB. A £550 "professional" screen that is KNOWN TO HAVE BACKLIGHT BLEED... They couldn't even find a sample to send to the review sites that didn't have it!

Basically that right there is what has gotten me so fed up with the market. Why was it ever on sale if that is the typical state of them?