Stirling Moss Bigotry

[Sliver]

I have the greatest respect for Stirling Moss with regard to his achievements as a racing driver. As a person though I'm starting to view him as an out of touch bigot.

Last night I watched a BBC documentary titled 'The fastest woman in the world' which told the story of a female driver called Susie Wollf. Susie is a truly inspirational character with a real talent for racing. In January this year she went for a test with Formula 1 team Williams where she surpassed everyone's expectations. She was give 10 laps to achieve a 52 second lap time and managed a best lap of 52.3 seconds. It's quite possible that Susie could end up with a seat on the grid in the future.

According to Stirling Moss however, women do not have the mental capacity to compete with men in F1.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...got-about-the-fastest-woman-in-the-world.html

Is it just me or is he a dinosaur who is out of touch with modern morality ? This isn't the only example of Stirling putting his foot in it recently. Remember the shameful comments about gays he made last month ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gend-Sir-Stirling-Moss-83-homophobia-row.html

I used to admire this man, but I deplore bigotry in all it's forms and I now find him a complete embarrassment to the sport and to the UK. I think it would be better for everyone if he just kept his mouth shut and enjoyed his final years in private.

 

[Sliver]

Different era, different opinions. He's hardly unique.

I'm sure views I hold today which are acceptable might not be so in 50+ years time.

I understand what you are saying but it comes over like you are making an excuse for his comments. Am I right ? Do you agree with his remarks or were you just playing devils advocate ?

There is no excuse for using a persons gender or sexuality to treat them in a less equal fashion. People who do this are repulsive, ignorant and immoral. Yes, Stirling was from a different era, but he's had enough time to re-assess his values and beliefs as he as aged and grown in a society with an ever evolving moral zeitgeist. Sadly, he hasn't done this.

 

[Sliver]

I'm just saying generally for people of his generation, that's how the world is (still) viewed. It's hard to change your views when it's been "that way" for so much of your life.

Personally I think there are women who could do it, given a chance. If a female youngster started karting and was put into a development programme focused around the aim of getting into F1 like so many of today's drivers, there's no reason at all they couldn't succeed (unless of course Moss is actually correct, and there is some kind of mental barrier related to gender).

Yeah that's fine. I think being given the chance is hugely important. I have no doubts that women like Susie are capable of competing with men but they have such an up hill struggle to try and break through in a male dominated sport like F1. Women like Susie seem to need to try twice as hard as their male counterparts in order to prove themselves.

 

[Sliver]

Go away with your tabloid over exaggerations. What he has said is hardly offensive and you have to understand he's from a totally different upbringing to you and I.



You've been brainwashed by a biased documentary about a mediocre driver who spent most of the time towards the back end of the grid in DTM and forbidden to do Le Mans by her husband Toto. The only reason she's at Williams is because her husband is a shareholder. Hardly the fastest woman in the world, I'm guessing the film title had something to do with the fact her brother directed it. If you look at the opportunity she has had, she should be doing MUCH better is she was truly talented.

Utter rubbish. How dare you tell me what he said is hardly offensive. Who the hell are you to tell me what I find offensive? Also don't tell me to go away. This is an open forum and I'm free to post my views just like anyone else.

I welcome different views from mine but I don't have time for cretins who make silly assumptions about brainwashing and dismiss my point of view by telling me to 'go away'. Either present a well reasoned argument why you think Moss is not a bigot or vise versa but don't bother with your ad hominum rhetoric.

 

[Sliver]

I wasn't actually telling you to go away, don't take it so literally. I should have realised how sensitive you were from your opening post.

You clearly don't welcome opinions and you can't even reply without resorting to personal insults. I can tell you it's hardly offensive because THAT'S MY OPINION and I WAS NOT offended by the comments because I have the sense to realise he was brought up into a different world than you and I. This clearly falls into the category of 'silly old man making a silly comment' and nothing more, there's no malice in it.

Ok, no problem. However I did address the morality issue earlier in this topic and I stand by the self evident fact that Moss has not evolved his way of thinking over the years with regard to his views on women and homosexuals. Being born in a different era is one thing, but sticking by your outdated views when you have every opportunity to realise they are wrong is clearly an ignorant thing to do.

I still stand by the brainwashed comments, your post looks something straight out of a BBC synopsis. She's not talented or inspirational in the slightest, she's just another mediocre racing driver to me regardless of sex.

I honestly disagree here. Regardless of how you think my post looks, I fail to see what that has to do with anything, it's just the way I type, sorry ! I think it's clear that she has talent. She was asked by Williams to drive that F1 car around that lap in 52 seconds and she managed 52.3. Now which ever way you cut it, she has some talent. I think instead of dismissing her as mediocre (yes she didn't do great in her time in DTM) she should be given an opportunity to see if she can progress and improve. I also find her inspirational. Which is my opinion. I understand that you don't and that's fine.

 

[Sliver]

Thanks for that post. Another example of a woman with great potential. Her race history so far is quite impressive too.

 

[Sliver]

Shamelessly stolen from PH but a year later but in the same car and circuit Bottas was putting in lap times 3 seconds quicker, hell Chilton who is derided as the worst of the worst pay drivers and he was putting in laps 2 seconds quicker in a much slower car.

1. Valtteri Bottas, Williams, 48.963s, 170 Laps
2. Max Chilton, Marussia, 49.932s, 52 Laps
3. Rio Haryanto, Marussia, 50.405s, 79 Laps

I find this an unfair comparison . Susie Wollf only had 10 laps to set her time. Naturally she was getting a little faster as she progressed. Bottas had 170 laps to set her time. I'm sure Susie would have been much quicker had she had 170 laps and not just 10.

 

[Sliver]

She had 100km which would have been about 30 laps.

Sorry, who had 30 laps ?

The documentary stated Susie had 10 laps. Your quote said Valtteri Bottas, Williams, 48.963s, 170 Laps.

 

[Sliver]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rk3bv/Driven_The_Fastest_Woman_in_the_World/

Skip to the 54 minute mark.

 

[Sliver]

Didn't read the whole thread yet but she married her way into F1 and the documentary was made by her brother. Great foundations for a balanced debate there.

By not reading the whole thread you have missed the point. Like any thread this has gotten side tracked because people prefer to focus on other issues rather than the obvious issue I stated and wanted to mainly discuss which was in the title of this thread.

Yes the documentary was made by her brother. He didn't set the lap time in the Williams F1 car though did he ?

 

[Sliver]

Ok, well that's your opinion, thanks for sharing.

 

[Sliver]

No Skeeter. I thought the title of documentary was pretty dumb and as people have already said this isn't surprising given that her own brother made the documentary. All of that aside though, there are a lot of people within F1 who have no family connections to her who see her potential. David Coulthard for example and many others whose opinion I value. Susie's lap time also speaks for it's self. She's not the most promising woman out there, Bietske Visser is clearly more promising at this point but she is deserving of some decent sponsorship and an opportunity to prove her self.

 

[Sliver]

Susie Wolff had ~30 laps - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19981625

In TOTAL. In the documentary (did you not watch it? ), she did some testing earlier in the day while the track was wet. Later in the day when the track dried, she had slicks on the car and went out and did her time trial over 10 laps. The previous 20 laps don't count as she was NOT trying to set a time.

Wolff's driving was restricted to 100km in total because of F1's testing restrictions.

Last time I checked the South Circuit of Silverstone is less than 10km. Thanks for helping me highlight how stupid this documentary was.

Well I don't find you're comments objective in the slightest. You seem to like changing the facts to fit your beliefs rather than changing your beliefs to fit the facts.

 

[Sliver]

Oh so she did more but they 'didn't count', as skeeter said how many of the laps done by other drivers 'didn't count'? She still had time in the car to accustom herself so they can't not count. She also spent time in the simulator.

Time trials are about setting the fastest time. Testing and race simulators are not part of the actual time trial process. I shouldn't need to explain this. It's pretty obvious. Maybe the other drivers all had lots of testing in the simulator and on the track before doing their time trials. Therefore it's even at the end of the day isn't it ?

I have no idea how many laps by other drivers were actually time trial laps or testing. It's a fair point and to be honest, as you were posting other drivers times, I expected you would know the answer.

 

[Sliver]

This is the point. She's an average driver because.... she's just an average driver. Not because she is a woman, but it seems that with women this is always the argument that comes up.

I think the point here is less about how good a driver Susie is, she's clearly not the fastest woman in the world. It's more about promoting women as potential drivers in F1. Love or hate Susie and the stupidly titled documentary about her, she has focused the spotlight once more on women in F1. This can only be good news for all women aspiring to someday race in F1.

 

[Sliver]

I don't see anyone saying women should be in F1 just because they are women. That's absurd. They should be there on merit. With people like Stirling Moss saying the sort of stupid things he does, it's tough for women. I hope Moss lives long enough to see a woman win a grand prix.

 

[Sliver]

That question is best put to the Williams F1 team as it was them who offered her the time trial and employed her as a test driver.

 

[Sliver]

It was more a question aimed at Silver. If its not because she is quick, which we have established she isn't, and not because she's a woman because F1 is sexist, why should she be in the seat?

Maybe she shouldn't be in a seat. I'm not qualified to make that judgement. But if you don't give her the chance, you'll never know. There are people in F1 who are qualified to make such a decision who think she's worth the chance. Let's just wait and see.

 

[Sliver]

Thanks for your post Vix. It's nice to get a female perspective from someone who actually knows what they are talking about as opposed to some of the stupid comments posted in this thread by ignorant men.

Stirling Moss's assertion that women can't function as well as men when under pressure and their life is on the line, just falls flat on it's face once you realise that women fight on the front line alongside men in many countries and it doesn't take a genius to realise that combat is a tad more stressful than F1.

We all know that men and women differ in many ways and as such can not be classed strictly as equal. However, they should be given equal rights and opportunities where possible and F1 is certainly one of those instances.

 

[Sliver]

This is what matters to me in this discussion ....

We all know that men and women differ in many ways and as such can not be classed strictly as equal. However, they should be given equal rights and opportunities where possible and F1 is certainly one of those instances.

If you guys want to argue against equality for women, then maybe that's a topic for another thread. We all know the world is not a fair place. This shouldn't stop us from striving to make it fairer though.