Suarez

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Castiel said:
The point I was making was that refering to someones colour as Suarez is accepted to have done is unacceptable everywhere in European Football and Europe in general, he would have known this.
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I understood what you were saying, I'm not sure it's the case though. There's been several examples given of Spanish people using terms such as negrito as a way of refering to people with darker skin (not necassarily black) in a friendly way.

Castiel said:
Given the climate in World Football regarding racism, implied or otherwise they run the risk of increasing his punishment.....I would advice against it if I was in a position to do so, accept the judgement, apologise for any unintentional offence caused and let the whole thing die down...it won't be long until John Terry does something worse, and all the focus will again shift to him...;)
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Yea, I said pre-release of the report that it did cross my mind that with the whole Blatter/Terry stuff happening at the same time, the FA will want an example made of him and I'm more than sceptical of the FA's willingness to overturn/change the punishment of any decisions that are made for any other offenses.

Because of the stance Liverpool have took, despite it possibly being pointless, it will be difficult for them not to appeal now though.
 
Andybtsn said:
Can't believe this is still being discussed :D
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As with many football related issues, they (wrongly and sadly) become tribal in a sense of a certain club sticking together (fans included) against other fans or the governing body.

This became tribal a long time ago, and many people in the Liverpool tribe refuse to acknowledge any different.

It's sad, because there isn't any defence of racism in any aspect of life. Yet to an outsider, the tee shirts in support of Suarez would have looked like that, looking and speaking to Liverpool fans it looks like that.
 
BaZ87 said:
edit: He's either guilty of a cultural misunderstand or he's guilty of intentionally using a racist term to offend. I've claimed he's guilty of intentionally using a racist term to offend and I'm trying to protect his character? Come on Robbo, I expect that sort of thing from people like Gustov but you're better than that.
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Fair enough Baz, I'm just saying you could be giving that impression, I think that overall you're being fairly reasonable.
 
BaZ87 said:
I understood what you were saying, I'm not sure it's the case though. There's been several examples given of Spanish people using terms such as negrito as a way of refering to people with darker skin (not necassarily black) in a friendly way.
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Spanish speaking Latin Americans....it is not generally considered acceptable in Spain. As the linguists would point out, the use of negrito alone is neutral, although depending on any epithet or context added it can be either amicable or offensive.... however given the situation and that there is no history of friendship between Suarez and Evra and the context of both the rivalry between Utd and Liverpool added to the confrontational context of the situation it is highly unlikely that Suarez was being anything other than offensive to Evra.

Even in Latin America using negrito is only acceptable between close friends, something that would take some convincing given Suarez' and Evra's relationship on field.
 
Not just Spanish speaking Latin Americans but Spaniard's too. Dani Pacheco (a Spanish LFC reserve team player) used the term several times to a Spanish-u21 teammate on twitter.

Regarding the lack of friendship between Evra and Suarez, the linguistic experts didn't believe they needed to be friends in order for the term to be non-offensive.

Anyway, this is a moot point. We've both said the cutural misunderstanding argument doesn't stand up already :p
 
Tummy said:
As with many football related issues, they (wrongly and sadly) become tribal in a sense of a certain club sticking together (fans included) against other fans or the governing body.

This became tribal a long time ago, and many people in the Liverpool tribe refuse to acknowledge any different.

It's sad, because there isn't any defence of racism in any aspect of life. Yet to an outsider, the tee shirts in support of Suarez would have looked like that, looking and speaking to Liverpool fans it looks like that.
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Meh, I don't entirely agree with that. As I tried to explain earlier, if you don't hate gingers, but happen to be in a fight with a ginger, and you want to hurt them, you'll likely say something about his ginger-ness. if that person is fat, that is what you home in on, if he's stupid, lanky, wears glasses, dresses like Russell Brand, looks like a ladyboy, etc, etc, some people will, when argueing with a black person, call them a black person :o

You could call it racist, I personally wouldn't, but the PC world will go mental over it none the less.

If someone goes around starting arguments, assaulting or mistreating all black people, its very obviously racist, without question and THOSE people need dealing with. When someone gets in a fight, verbal or physical, and the person HAPPENS TO BE BLACK, and that wasn't the reason it started, and then someone just uses the fact to try and hurt them, that is no different to any of the other situations I highlighted, even if the PC brigade want it to be. Stupid, naive and obviously going to be come across badly in the world we live in right now, damn right.

None of that again has any relevance to the case, rightly or wrongly the rules involved being broken by the FA< that liverpool, Suarez, Evra all agreed to play by ONLY take notice of comments about race/ethnic origin and the rules don't say anything about taking the mick out of someone for being fat/ginger/northern/etc. Suarez broke the rules of the game he signed contracts to play in, the law outside the game, and the morality of the law, the unfairness is all irrelevant, as the rules of THIS game are agreed to before hand and he has been found guilty of breaking them.


Having read most of the report most clearly, again I'll point out the skin pinching incident as the MAIN reason Suarez was found guilty.

The timeline is basically that he pinched Evra, and the only time he admitted to using the term negro was AFTER the skin pinch. His first story was this was all done in a friendly manner, he has since changed his story and admitted that the skin pinch was not a friendly or difussing gesture, but done to wind him up and the fact that he called him negro AFTER admitting to trying to wind him up for me wipes out any chance he was saying negro in a friendly way and I suspect that is the main reason they find his usage of the term offensive and his testimony, well, rubbish.
 
BaZ87 said:
Not just Spanish speaking Latin Americans but Spaniard's too. Dani Pacheco (a Spanish LFC reserve team player) used the term several times to a Spanish-u21 teammate on twitter.

Regarding the lack of friendship between Evra and Suarez, the linguistic experts didn't believe they needed to be friends in order for the term to be non-offensive.

Anyway, this is a moot point. We've both said the cutural misunderstanding argument doesn't stand up already :p
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In Spain it is generally considered derogatory in much the same way as we see it in Britain....it is only considered a term of endearment in Spain (and several Latin American countries) if it is used between friends in much the same way as two black friends may call each other '******', however in Spain it is generally considered offensive unless used colloquially.

The problem in dealing with this is that, like English, Spanish is full of idioms and expressions that confer a negative context to the word Negro and it's diminuitive Negrito, remember 'black' is a neutral term in English as is 'Negro' especially in a historical context, although that can change significantly depending on how you use that neutral term.....In Spanish, like many romance languages, terminology such as 'work like a slave' and associations such as being unlucky or small and insignificant all are infered by the use of the word Negro or Negrito, especially in Latin American countries such as Uruguay....this is why due to European influences and the historical racism within Spain, the Spanish themselves generally find the term offensive, although not necessarily overtly racist, with the obvious exceptions of banter between friends which was the basis of Suarez' defence....

This is why the FA called in the Linguists.
 
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I use that phrase now and again 'work like a slave' or 'what im i black?', in spanish 'que soy negro?' It doesn't mean that blacks should be slaves or anything sinister. Its just an analogy i use to describe that im treated rather unfairly.
 
LFC have put themselves in a really tight spot - given whats been said previously surely they have to appeal, even though there is a good chance the ban could be extended because of the "frivolity" of appealing (I think thats the reason the FA could use for extending anyway)
 
Castiel said:
Josef Mengele was a good scientist and anthropologist...ergo...:p



(invokes Godwins law)
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Hehe, its really more that if I started to dislike footballers for their morals, I'd end up having to dislike just about every footballer in every team, I'd end up disliking them all for greed, disloyalty, philandering, dishonesty, cheating, fraud, racism, arrogance and so on, I'd be left liking the ball itself more than the players :)
 
Tombstone said:
Hehe, its really more that if I started to dislike footballers for their morals, I'd end up having to dislike just about every footballer in every team, I'd end up disliking them all for greed, disloyalty, philandering, dishonesty, cheating, fraud, racism, arrogance and so on, I'd be left liking the ball itself more than the players :)
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Yes, but you can evaluate them on an individual basis.

For example, if this case was the exact opposite, I would think Evra is a fairly decent left-back, but a total bar-steward.
 
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