Supreme Commander - Base building

Tefal said:
yeah but the thing is t1 rushing is just boring, most people don't give a flaying **** about being top of the ranking and just want nice epic battles like in the advertising videos we want Collosusses and spider bots fighting it out while cybran destroyers merge epically from the see and fighters and gun ships fight over head.


Not 20 minutes then little tank number 149 finally ends it.
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T1 rushing is NOT boring, it is hectic and hard to manage. Stressful yes, but not boring. Calling it boring is an excuse!

Just because you must build a lot of units you are not examining the diversity of them.

It requires skill to implement tactics at the early stages of the game, it requires skill to reach T2 in the game (as it should be because it is a SECOND tier).

Currently it is known that T3 is not a massively valid option in the game (besides mobile artillery) because it costs so much to get there and T4 is much more efficient, but this was a decision made during the beta for FA because in SupCom T3 rushes were common and nobody was really using T2 back then.

Sim City as you are suggesting is boring! How can you compare waiting for things to build in comparison to frantic micro of your units to avoid or win sporadic skirmishes whilst trying to expand your base in order conquer your enemy.

Sending a big unit looks great, but you are just changing the perspective. If Monkeylords were T1 units you would be building the relative T4 unit complaining about how monkeylords sucked.

Games where by everyone turtles, and then lobs a few experimentals and a few T3 followed by a nuke (or if its a really boring X2 resources game) then a Mavor and end game is lame.
What I mean is that took up 1h30mins worth of time playing one game and 20 to 40 mins of that was just building up your in game economy and defences to see them smashed in what 5 mins....Now that is BORING!

Just play no resources if you want that kinda thing (basically watching a pretty battle), just forget learning tactics, but still expect to get beaten because anyone half decent will be way ahead of you and will out skill you.
 
Curio said:
I only play against the AI - on-line is too serious for me, and I haven't got the time or inclination to "master" the game. Recently my tactic is to build a couple of T1 bombers (I nearly always play as UEF) as fast as I can and fly them over to the enemy starting base. The AI never seems to build AA early on, so the bombers fly around for ages completely stalling his initial economy building. By the time he does anything about the bombers I'm usually ready to take him down. T1 bombers are far too fast/cheap to build now compared to early versions of the game - you can just spam the AI to death with them :(
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The thing about AI is no matter how good it is, you will still discover it is predictable and half the battles are spent exploiting a way to beat it.

Such as building walls and tons of PD and AA because it never bothers to build decent firebases itself and will instead chuck units in small drips. If you loose the AI then you really are missing the fun.

If you want non serious play then join games with friends and if you want to see fun then watch the replays and wince and woo as the pro's out skill one another!
 
PoD said:
Is this Forged Alliance or Vanilla?

Either way their is a couple of things you MUST learn in order to learn 'Win' in Supreme Commander!
(I will call Supreme Commander FA because that is what I play and it represents the true up to date representation of SupCom)

  • So the first and most important is that FA is NOT Sim City because FA is not about building your base up to be the ultimate design in symmetry.
  • When your under heavy attack it helps to be able to throw a few shields up in the right places or if you get to late T3 then to know where to put shields and to have placed structures so as to minimise damage, but I would trade a shield for a few tanks any day.

  • which brings me to the third point that units are more important than buildings and by this I mean if you have spent the first 8 mins working only on your economy then you are about to die.

  • Teching up is NOT something you should do without CAREFUL consideration and should only be done when you NEED something more specialised in that Tier and you cannot obtain the firepower or say range to do it in your present tier. Don't tech up unless you know what you need or are in a position of control
So to start off I would suggest you stick with Tier 1 (T1).
T1 is where most games end and is certainly where most of the major action is!

a lot of people see the videos and have played and been brought up on C&C style RTS and so they think that the mammoth tank rush is where its at and so they try to make this uber adjacency bonus structure where everything gains significant reductions from one another and then they tech up ASAP.
but I am telling you from bitter experience that this is made of fail!

The ONLY thing I use for adjacency is mass storage around mass extractors at T2 and T1 power around radar and air factories.
I may put up a shield next to a PGen, but this is only for its protection and not for the bonus.
Infact throw adjacency out the window
The ways I personally found to win in FA were to relearn all that I knew and to drop all that I thought I knew. (sounds stupid, but playing a real RTS like supcom requires new skills from the ground level)

  • Don't expect to win by base building, but Know that you HAVE TO win by walking your units on mass up to the enemy ACU and blowing him away!
  • Don't be defensive because defence is fail, be offensive as a means of defence and ALWAYS take an opportunity to slow the enemy economy down with the exception of when you are killing his ACU
  • You ACU in your base has the power of 4 T1 engineers, but on the front line it has the power of 20 T1 tanks....so go figure!

As I say in all these threads.
  • Read the Supcom GPG.Net forums
  • Read the gamereplay forums
  • Watch replays
  • oh and take a look at the unit stats at supcomDB

You will not believe how much you will learn from doing so and your skill will more than quadruple in doing so (no word of a lie!)
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sorry but i totally disagree with several points, i win regularly against AI and friends by using artillery, without ever having to send a single unit to attack there ACU, so you CAN win through base building, i think its actually more deadly than marching countless units to kill his base, theres no stopping artillery and as well, shields generators are INVALUABLY useful against a rushing air player, the amount of times i have survived against matt (best mate who loves aircraft) because of shield generators is immense, so trading shields for tanks is questionable. supreme commander for me is 1) building a stable economy, first bunch of mass extractors and generators 2) levelling up ACU construction, it builds faster than anything else 3) levelling up AIR factory to T3 as soon as possible, i always build air first, since gunships are far more useful than crappy lower level tanks and such 4) creating T3 economy, within 10 - 15 minutes 5) securing my base from attack, without your base/economy your a pointless sitting duck, protect it! 6) concentrate on my attack strategy, either range (artillery, nukes), carrier (if im aeon that means CZAR) or experimental, i rarely use conventional units, don't see the need. but in my experience in TA and supreme commander so far i have came to the conclusion the greatest threat to ACU and economy comes from massed aircraft attacks and massed T2/T3 bot and tank rushes. and another point i disagree with is adjacency bonuses, there pretty valuble most of the time, especially high drain structures like omni radars and perimeter defence thing the cybran get, so im gonna recommend using adjacency, especially for power and mass, you can get large boost in your T3 plants by simply surrounding them with mass/energy storages :)
 
Gashman said:
sorry but i totally disagree with several pointS.....
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Artillery is made of loose and here is why!

  • It is stationary so you have to creep to get it within its limited range!
  • It's a T2 unit and that means surviving until T2
  • By the time you have 1 T3 artillery up I can have 20 Strat Bomber
  • T3 Artillery is EASILY stopped with shields. The only artillery you cant stop with shields is grouped T2 or T3 mobile artillery.
  • Artillery costs WAY to much for its worth.

If you would care to challenge me to disprove your theory then just turtle up and I will beat you on any map!

Ranked games are where the best of the best play. It is necessary because it is the BEST way to win, sure some people successfully rush to T2, but it is extremely hard to pull off on any maps smaller than 20x20.


The idea that the game developers worked on with FA was to make it more of a battle for mass spots rather than a Sim city war.
If you don't know this then I know you don't know enough about the game yet and you really should stop and just try to understand that your way may not be the best way.

Just because you think you have some uber build you simply will not get past the 8 min mark on any map with just turtle.
Fastest time for a monkeylord is 8 min

Turtle only works if you can sit behind a wall of defence that cannot be cracked because of the time and expense of defence it means a larger and more deadly force of land units can be built.

Units are DESIGNED to be more powerful mass for mass than defence.
where as defence is DESIGNED to slow offences against you down whilst you recall your troops.
 
fish99 said:
PoD, that may all be necessary to win ranked games, but I personally wouldn't enjoy T1 only games that are over in 20 mins. It reminds me of this sort of thing-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQVony1a33U
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exactly I bought the game for supreme commander not, mildly large commander.

If i wanted small rush skirmishes there are so many more games out there that do that and do it better. for this I want big basses then fancy tactics and amusing raids etc with hundreds of units at a time, trying to take another big base.

sure you'll probbably win if we played but I couldn't give a flaying **** as you're not the kind of person I'd play because you want a different type of game, reason why I don;t play many RTS's on line as they all just turn the rush games which to me and many others is boring.
 
If you ever seen those top 10 online matches they do tend to last 20-45 minutes on level 1 or 2...

Doesnt look all that good, thats why I always prefered playing with Sorians AI and with a m8 2vs2 matches always fun:)
 
HighlandeR said:
If you ever seen those top 10 online matches they do tend to last 20-45 minutes on level 1 or 2...

Doesnt look all that good, thats why I always prefered playing with Sorians AI and with a m8 2vs2 matches always fun:)
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have you tried the Tortuga (think its that one, ment to be paired with bean) it's a turtle and if you leave it to build up for a while it creates an insane base, then starts pumping out experimentals by the dozen.
 
Cant recall been a while but I always did that desert type map 2vs2 sorta a maze inbetween just lovely watching Sorian AI sending masses of enemies around that corner :)

Countless hours of fun and getting to work half sleepy :)

I miss it but am sorta feeling the itch for Starcraft 2... wonder if that has real time physics on there shields!
 
I've been experimenting with the 'ranked' game style today after reading this thread, reading a guide on GPGNet, and watching a load of ranked replays. There's no doubt it's far more effective than going for tech upgrades or turtling. For instance on winter dual I could beat balanced supreme in 30 mins (vanilla not FA), where my old play style a few days ago that map took me 2 hrs and I nearly lost...

....but oh boy is it a lot less fun - no experimentals, no nukes, no artilery, no PDs, no fixed AA, no storage, only reaching T3 a few minutes before the end and not getting to use any T3 units. Just spamming masses of T1/T2 units and constant attacking to pin the AI in to his corner and control the mass points. It may give you a better chance of winning, but I don't see how the game are more fun that way as some people claim when you're not using two thirds of the units/buildings in the game.

Here's that guide btw - http://forums.gaspowered.com/viewtopic.php?t=16132
 
fish99 said:
I've been experimenting with the 'ranked' game style today after reading this thread, reading a guide on GPGNet, and watching a load of ranked replays. There's no doubt it's far more effective than going for tech upgrades or turtling. For instance on winter dual I could beat balanced supreme in 30 mins (vanilla not FA), where my old play style a few days ago that map took me 2 hrs and I nearly lost...

....but oh boy is it a lot less fun - no experimentals, no nukes, no artilery, no PDs, no fixed AA, no storage, only reaching T3 a few minutes before the end and not getting to use any T3 units. Just spamming masses of T1/T2 units and constant attacking to pin the AI in to his corner and control the mass points. It may give you a better chance of winning, but I don't see how the game are more fun that way as some people claim when you're not using two thirds of the units/buildings in the game.

Here's that guide btw - http://forums.gaspowered.com/viewtopic.php?t=16132
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It isn't any fun at all when using rush tactics against an ai, they respond in exactly the same way they always respond; they die...

Fact is, ranked games are played mostly be people who just want to win, and rushing is the only way, t2 withing 4 mins of starting, and t2 rocket bot rush, game over....

...BUT... When playing a more friendly game, the rushes don't happen as frequently, yes, there's always a few units attacking early on, but almost always to hold certain mass points, rather than commander killing. Besides, the best games i have ever played are when i'm playing against a similarly skilled player and we both rush, the rush meets in the middle, and, as long as no one gets the upper hand in the central rush-battle, then it becomes a very long game, with both teams not wanting to loose tha battle in the middle, and both teams building their bases up, and it'll almost always go to exp's/nukes/arty to win the game.

I haven't played ranked in months now, but i have played friendlies with sir_loui.. and won (once =P - infact, this was winter dual too, a lucky double tac missile snipe on 14 mins in, he would have had me otherwise, he ahd already started to gain the upper hand in the rush) Mostly i'll play me vs 7 allied supremeAI, or me an d a mate vs 6 supremeAI's. If playing FA, i'll usually play vs 2 or 3 AIX (very much like the sorian cheating AI..)

And to the above.. a 30 mins game on winter dual??? should be able to take down a supreme ai within 10 mins easily... I'd love to see a 2 hour game on that map =D

Base building is all good and well, and gets to the fun part of the game, but it's just plain BORING doing practically naff all for an hour. Rushing makes the game a lot more fun, whilst still giving you the opportunity to build up your base.
 
V|per said:
..i have played friendlies with sir_loui.. and won (once =P - infact, this was winter dual too, a lucky double tac missile snipe on 14 mins in, he would have had me otherwise, he ahd already started to gain the upper hand in the rush)....
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Replay else BS
 
I was playing a few months ago, pretty much daily games. Never played ranked and never want to as its all rush tactics, so i heard. Well small maps seem to be about low tech and hammering enemies resources.
Yes you can play a really good long lasting high tech monster battle online - I generally played setons clutch map. 3v3 or 4v4. 20 min rush is a server option that works quite well, by 20 min you need a good T3 air force, navy and or land depending on map position. Also often its good to turn off nukes and end game server option, just to prolong the battle with exp units.
Having games like this was what supreme commander is all about, the only problem is you need a dam powerful rig to handle all the unit and equally skilled teams with reliable connections. hmm might have a game tonight!!
 
Only thing that sorta bugged me about supreme commander is if u do manage to secure the mass extraction points around the map u still sorta won, not unless the other person has teched up fast and even then u would be overwhelmed with 1000s of bots pinning u back towards your base.

It woulda been more better if it sorta focused u to get tech 2/3 mass storage, rather then upgrading or trying to upgrade all your mass extraction points.

Having said that it at least offered a much more better economy/mass+energy over any other RTS games ive played.
 
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