Surge Protector

foreright

foreright

foreright

Associate
Joined
19 Jan 2005
Posts
461
Location
Romford, Essex
Does anyone use or know of a resettable surge protector for their PC. I have used the "cheapie charlie" 4 Gang Surgeguard ones. The problem is once the MOV has blown, if the block is hidden behind a table. You fail to see the green light is extinquished and the block reverts to a plain 4 Gang extension lead and offers no protection.
Although they are cheap at £10 each, they are a risk I would rather not take in light of the fact that I lost one PSU a while ago and notice that this block has already had one surge and is again useless. At least I noticed this time. Any suggestions please.
 
foreright said:
Does anyone use or know of a resettable surge protector for their PC. I have used the "cheapie charlie" 4 Gang Surgeguard ones. The problem is once the MOV has blown, if the block is hidden behind a table. You fail to see the green light is extinquished and the block reverts to a plain 4 Gang extension lead and offers no protection.
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Learn what that protector was really doing. A potentially destructive surge is hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules did that power strip claim to absorb? Hundreds? Right off, numbers do not make sense.

Its MOV better not blow. Otherwise a potential house fire existed. The MOV must have a thermal fuse. A surge too large for the protector (but too small to harm appliances) caused a thermal fuse to blow. That surge remain connected to appliances. But MOVs were disconnected, as fast as possible, to avert a house fire. That failure also gets the naive to recommend the protector.

Sometimes a thermal fuse does not blow fast enough. That is the rare and dangerous reason for fire. Be concerned that the protector only claimed to protect from surges that typically do not damage appliances. Start by reading its spec numbers. Be concerned that only a thermal fuse was left to avert fire.

Now, another completely different device does claim protection you want. A completely different device that, unfortunately, has a same name. These connect even direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth. Must be distant from appliances. Within meters of earth ground. To protect everything inside. If your PSU needs protection, then so does the dishwasher, refrigerator, furnace, RCD, washing machine, air conditioner, and smoke detectors. Only this second type protector protects from a surge that typically damages those.

More important, the effective protector remains functional even after a direct lightning strike. These devices are available from more responsible manufacturers through Keison, Siemens, ABB, and Aelgroup. All names known by any 'guy' for quality.

No protector works by stopping or disconnecting a surge. Did you really think a millimeter gap in a switch or fuse will stop what three kilometers of sky could not? And yet that is exactly what effective protectors are for. So that all surges, including the typically most destructive, do not harm anything. Do not even harm the protector.

Not stop or disconnect a surge. Effective protection connects a surge harmlessly and 'less than 3 meters' to an earthed electrode. The earth ground. A major difference.

Your protector either failed on a tiny surge (be thankful for the thermal fuse). Or was a potential house fire.
 
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Thanks for the detailed response to surges. but most of it was a bit too complicated for me.
All I want is protection and if possible a lead that is will cut out following a surge and need resetting rather than reverting to a conventional extension lead.
 
I dont think any surge protector cuts out, but kills the surge before it gets to your stuff. I have a UPS with a surge protector built in, but it also keeps the volts within a range, so If the volts goes out of this range it will flick over to battery mode until the volts are within the range again.

I dont think nothing can protect you from a direct lightning strike tho, but that would be like winning the lottery, it will prob never happen.

Edit: I think surge protectors in UPS's lasts forever, as I think UPS's kills surges in a different way to surge protectors, but Im not sure on that one?
 
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foreright said:
All I want is protection and if possible a lead that is will cut out following a surge and need resetting rather than reverting to a conventional extension lead.
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Again, no such device exists. Again,
No protector works by stopping or disconnecting a surge. Did you really think a millimeter gap in a switch or fuse will stop what three kilometers of sky could not? And yet that is exactly what effective protectors are for.
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The effective protector only does what a lightning rod does. Knowing what a lightning rod does, then:
Not stop or disconnect a surge. Effective protection connects a surge harmlessly and 'less than 3 meters' to an earthed electrode. The earth ground. A major difference.
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Surges seek earth ground. So lightning struck a better conductor to earth - a wooden church steeple. How did Franklin avert damage? He installed a lightning rod. But the lightning rod does not do protection. Protection is provided by a wire connected to an earth ground electrode. That wire is now the better connection to earth. Energy dissipates harmlessly in earth.

Surges seek earth ground. So lightning struck a better conductor to earth - utility wires and every appliance inside the house. How was damage averted over 100 years ago? Every incoming wire (no exceptions) connected to a single point earth ground electrode. Protection is provided by a wire connection direct to earth ground (ie cable TV, satellite dish). Or made by a protector connected short to earth (telephone, AC electric). But always as short as possible to what does the protection - earth ground. Then energy dissipates harmlessly in earth.

Those are your only alternatives to protect a structure and to protect all household appliances. Nothing as in nothing protects from surges by disconnecting or regulating voltages. Not fuses, circuit breakers, switches or that UPS. Protection is always about connecting energy to and dissipating it harmlessly in earth. Surges increase voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might stop it.

Concepts so simple that Franklin demonstrated wooden steeple protection in 1752. So simple that telephone and radio facilities used this proven technique well over 100 years ago.

Even that UPS only claims to protect from surges that typically do no damage. Why do you know? No 'less than 3 meter' connection to an earthing electrode. Because the electrode (not a protector, switch, or UPS) does protection.

What companies provide effective solutions? Keison, ABB, Siemens, and Aelgropu to name but a few. None do it with a UPS. Protection means a protector connects short to earth ground. Only effective solution was always that simple.
 
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westom said:
Even that UPS only claims to protect from surges that typically do no damage.
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I dont believe that, cos a few yrs ago a thunder storm took out my pc and it wasnt a direct strike, so I honestly believe if my pc was behind a decent sure protector or a UPS, my pc would have lived to face another day.
 
Phil2008 said:
I dont believe that, cos a few yrs ago a thunder storm took out my pc and it wasnt a direct strike, so I honestly believe if my pc was behind a decent sure protector or a UPS, my pc would have lived to face another day.
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How do you know it was not a direct strike? Lightning striking far down the street can be a direct strike incoming to all household appliances. Irrelevant if utility wires are overhead or underground.

Surges are generated by many sources including stray cars, linemen mistake, and grid faults. Lightning is cited as a typical example. Other destructive surges also blow through a UPS or protector just like lightning. Worse, an adjacent protector can even give that surge more destructive paths into electronics.

Once a surge is permitted inside a building, then nothing will stop the destructive hunt for earth. Nothing adjacent to an appliance even claims to protect.

Better protection is already inside most electronics - including clocks, dimmer switches, and RCD. Concern is a rare anomaly that actually does damage. A protector is earthed so that the rare and typically destructive surge causes no damage - to any appliance.

How does that UPS disconnect from a surge? Or regulate voltage? It doesn't. AC power connects directly (hardwired) when not in battery backup mode. Where is the protection? The answer needs spec numbers.

Somehow a UPS will stop, block, or disconnect from a destructive surge? Surges are done in microseconds. UPS takes milliseconds to disconnect. These are damning numbers. Fortunately superior protection is already inside appliances to make the so called 'indirect' surge irrelelvant. Protection that maybe ovewhelmed if a 'whole house' protector is not earthed. A surge that causes damage is lightning or equivalent. Only earthing averts that damage.
 
westom said:
How do you know it was not a direct strike? Lightning striking far down the street can be a direct strike incoming to all household appliances. Irrelevant if utility wires are overhead or underground.
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It only took out my pc, but it could have destroyed my pc by the phone line, as it happened in the 56k modem days

westom said:
Somehow a UPS will stop, block, or disconnect from a destructive surge? Surges are done in microseconds. UPS takes milliseconds to disconnect. These are damning numbers. Fortunately superior protection is already inside appliances to make the so called 'indirect' surge irrelelvant. Protection that maybe ovewhelmed if a 'whole house' protector is not earthed. A surge that causes damage is lightning or equivalent. Only earthing averts that damage.
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I think my UPS transfers to batt mode in something like 8-11ms, but the surge protection on the UPS might be different?
 
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Phil2008 said:
Also if these devices are so useless why do manufactures produce them?
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Take a £3 power strip. Add some 10 pence parts. Sell it for how much? £10? £40? With profits that high, even I would sell you one.

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power for blackouts. Yes, 'dirty' because some of the 'spikiest' power comes from a UPS in battery backup mode. That 'dirtiest' power is made irrelevant by superior protection inside all electronics.

Protection inside appliances means 'dirty' UPS power is only noise. Concern is a rare transient that, for example, blew through superior protection inside your computer to find earth ground. Yes, anything inside a UPS is already done better by what was inside you computer's PSU.

A least expensive solution is an earthed 'whole house' protector. The only solution used in any facility that cannot have damage. But most consumers only know what is most advertised. It has a massive profit margin, plenty of advertising, and no spec numbers that define protection. That proves it must be superior? With profits that large, even I would sell you one.

OP's only useful solution involves earthng.
 
Phil2008 said:
I think my UPS transfers to batt mode in something like 8-11ms, but the surge protection on the UPS might be different?
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Does not matter. Do you really think a 2 cm part will somehow stop what three kilometers of sky could not? Your computer's PSU is required to withstand over 1000 volts without damage. Superior protection is already in appliances including and not limited to galvanic isolation. If anything can stop or disconnect from a destructive surge, then protection already inside appliances has done that.

If a surge was incoming on a 56K modem, then what was the outgoing path? No outgoing path means no electricity and no damage. Even wood, concrete, and linoleum tile can be electrical conductors. Once that surge is permitted inside, then it hunts for and finds numerous conductive and potentially destructive paths. Once permitted to go hunting, only remaining protection is that inside the appliance.

To have computer damage means both an incoming and outgoing path must exist. 56K modem could be the incoming or outgoing. But another electrical path must have also existed. Just another reason why the OP's disconnecting or blocking device is futile.
 
Also someone told my that a surge dont damage things instantly as a surge dont get up to full strength instantly, so before they get to damaging levels the surge protector/UPS will have reacted and hopefully will have stopped the surge.
 
westom said:
To have computer damage means both an incoming and outgoing path must exist. 56K modem could be the incoming or outgoing. But another electrical path must have also existed. Just another reason why the OP's disconnecting or blocking device is futile.
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Im thinking that the surge went in the psu, through the pc's hardware and out of the modem, through the phone line?
 
Like Ive said in other threads I would rather my pc behind my UPS in a thunder storm when Im not around to unplug the pc, then no protection at all.

I do get real ichy about storms tho, cos Ive been bitten once before and if Im around its no good, I have to unplug the pc, even tho Im sure the UPS could cope, but ppl like westom put doubts in my mind.. But when Im not around, I have to put my faith in the UPS to keep my pc safe, and touch wood it has done its job on a few occasions when I haven't been around to disconnect the pc.

Apparently my belkin 1200va UPS can handle 39,000,000 watts. The spec is "420 Joules, Maximum Surge / Spike - 6,500 Amps / 6000 Volts" so if you x the amp by the volts, you get how meny watts it can handle. I even emailed belkin to see if it was true, and they confirmed it is. They said it should be able to handle a near storm fine.
 
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Personally, I wished I'd never asked. I've got a headache now. Thanks for the contributions nonetheless Phil. Weston only posts about power issues and reels off the same over the top answers to all posters. Too much for me!
 
foreright said:
Personally, I wished I'd never asked. I've got a headache now. Thanks for the contributions nonetheless Phil. Weston only posts about power issues and reels off the same over the top answers to all posters. Too much for me!
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Most threads on various sites that discusses UPS's or power surges westom will more or less pop up in them.

Im sorry you didnt get your awser that you were looking for. But I have never come across a surge protector that cuts out. Im using this for my tv setup and Ive had it now for 4yrs and the light hasnt gone out yet.. but like you years ago, I were using the cheap surge protectors and within a few months they were buggered http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-047-BE&groupid=702&catid=55

For my pc setup I use a belkin UPS that Ive had for about 5yrs now and its still going strong, and like I said I dont think the surge protection ever wears out, so they are quite hassle free accept the batts do need replacing every 3 yrs or so. http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=1893 (you can no longer buy this tho)

Anyway I hope thats a bit more constructed for you?

edit: Also Westom said when UPS's flick over to battery mode, they use dirty power, and this is true but only because the batts cant keep the volts constant, but at the end of the day its running of the mains power 98% of the time anyway, so it doesn't matter.
 
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Phil2008 said:
I dont believe that, cos a few yrs ago a thunder storm took out my pc and it wasnt a direct strike, so I honestly believe if my pc was behind a decent sure protector or a UPS, my pc would have lived to face another day.
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Funny enough i had something similar happen to one of our PC's and other equipment in the house a few years back from a non direct lightning strike.

Basically the lightning strike hit outside the house across the road (About 15M) on to a telegraph pole. The telegraph pole is for phone lines in the area and we are not going through that for any of our services (All underground with Virgin Media). The PC in question is on a surge protector and it's on board Network card got fried along with the Cable TV box and a resistor in the base unit of a phone in the living room (As explained was on Virgin media underground cable).

Even though i still have Surge protectors on most of my equipment in the house to protect from surges/spikes via the electrical circuits. A lightning strike can not be stopped if close enough due to EMP (Electromagnetic pulse) All your fancy UPS etc will probably get fried in reality if the strike is close enough. We can't stop Mother Nature :)
 
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