Swap AV receiver to Soundbar

[Haggisman]

After another instance of inwardly grumbling about the kids knocking the rear satellites off the wall, the realisation hit me that we never actually really use the system to the full potential anyway - the kids are usually in bed by the time we get to watch anything that would actually justify it, so the volume has to be kept to a minimum; the sub hasn't even been switched on in months, so i figured might as well get rid of the speakers and cabling and tidy the TV area up with a soundbar instead. This is where the good people of OcUK come in!

The current system isn't particularly high end:

Denon avr s540bt receiver (basically their entry level model)
Yamaha yst-fsw050 sub (again, entry level)
Mordaunt short ms902 fronts
Center and rears from my old Onkyo kit (can't remember exactly what).

Budget is £300 max, and would prefer without a separate sub - so far, the one which catches my eye the most is the Denon DHT-S216. I also quite fancy a couple of Atmos ones: Sony HT-X8500 or LG SN7CY, but my concern with those would be blocking the upward firing drivers, as it will be wall mounted directly below the TV (max gap would be ~10cm from top of bar to bottom of TV).

Any thoughts on the above or alternative suggestions?

 

[hornetstinger]

Soundbar without subs going to be very bass shy so you will need a sub

How about replacing the LCR with a passive LCR soundbar keeping your avr.

Mount the rear speakers up higher

 

[Haggisman]

Even the ones with integrated subs? As mentioned, we don't use the existing sub much, so it doesn't need to be room shaking.

I did initially look at passive soundbars, but the choice seems to be extremely limited, and those I could find were on the more expensive side! Any particular recommendations?

Mounting the rears higher wouldn't be ideally as then we'd end up with wires trailing up the wall

 

[lucid]

The "integrated sub" idea is spin on the public perception of a sub as a large-ish box that the designers have managed somehow magically shrunk down into the much smaller space of a sound bar. There's one word to debunk that hokum - Physics. However, manufacturers can't make a product claim that's patently untrue. They can try of course, and they play fast and loose with definitions and methods of measurement such as when making power claims, but they can't outright lie, so what's the story with the integrated sub?

The answer is that sub-bass frequencies start at 60Hz. That might not mean much on its own but it's the sort of frequency that bookshelf speakers can get down to. Here's the Wharfedale 220, currently on sale for around £120/pr. They're very good speakers for the money.

These 12" tall speakers hit 56Hz which is just inside the sub-bass frequency range of 60Hz down to 16Hz, yet Wharfedale don't claim that they include a subwoofer. Your MS902 speakers are rated for 55Hz, and yet Mordaunt Short don't claim a built-in sub there either, so what gives?

The answer is in the definitions of words. In order to be a sub then it should be driven separately from the other frequency drivers. Well that's okay. Decent sound bars and smart speakers make use of something called an active crossover. This means the frequencies are split to treble, mid, bass etc before going to the amplification. There's then a dedicated amp for each speaker. Passive crossovers like in the 220s and your MS902s split the frequencies after amplification, so they're dumping a lot of power and it's also why they haven't started to claim that bookshelf speakers include a sub.

Going down the active route might seem like it would be more expensive in amp costs, but the cost of small individual Class D chips is low, and the amps are tailored to each driver - the tweeters need very little power - and it gives the designer far more control over the sound. They can "fix it in the software", is the kind of approach. Active is far more power efficient than passive, so there are cost savings from not needing a large amp in order to offset the power losses through a passive crossover.

There we have it then. Dip just below 60Hz, and run the speaker on a dedicated channel, and it's possible to claim that a baguette-sized sound bar has a built-in subwoofer. It's all a bit smoke and mirrors.

Your MS902 hit 55Hz, and with some room gain and the port tuning they might even manage to go a bit lower than that. That's the kind of bass level you'll get from a sound bar with a built-in sub at around your price range. However, it won't be a like for like comparison. The bass notes from the sound bar will lack the articulation of your 902s. You'll get bass from the sound bar, but it'll be more like thud-thud-thud. You'll also lose some definition in the higher frequencies for midrange and treble. The voices and music will be there, but it will be more like a the audio equivalent of a painting by numbers picture.

With all this in mind I would choose a sound bar that concentrates the budget on two tweeters and a woofer/sub rather than multiple angled drivers for a bounced ATMOS effect. The Denon fits the bill. Although it has DTS:X, this technology uses the existing 2.1 speaker configuration rather than requiring additional speakers.

 

[Haggisman]

Thanks for that breakdown, and that was what I read about the Denon - the budget has gone on sound quality vs "gimmicks".

Maybe I'll just ditch the rears/sub and keep the AVR and try and figure out a way to make the fronts a bit less obtrusive!

 

[hornetstinger]

Something like this with your existing avr

Monolith by Monoprice M-OW3 THX Certified LCR/Soundbar On Wall Speaker (Each) - Monoprice.com

Monolith™ by Monoprice™M‑OW3 THX® Certified On‑Wall SpeakerThe Monolith™ M‑OW3 THX® Certified On‑Wall Speaker offers high performance audio from a sli

www.monoprice.com

I'd upgrade your "sub" also

 

[Haggisman]

Well, the AVR and speakers are gone...

That Monolith looks nice, but quite a bit over budget.

Based on the posts above, I think I can potentially make an unobtrusive space for a sub, so have narrowed it down to the following:

Sony HT-X8500 - £250, still like this one due to the lack of sub, but aware some the other options will potentially be better.
Sony HT-G700 - £300
Samsung HW-Q600A - £300
Denon DHT-S517 - £330

Can anyone give any feedback/real life experience of these? The Samsung seems to be the "best" in terms of reviews, but I'm a bit against that one as I really don't like them as a company.

Failing that, the DHT-S216 at £150 is also still tempting just for a cheap & cheerful solution without any of the Atmos stuff that the ones above have

 

[hornetstinger]

Monoprice soundbar with avr and a sub.

 

[Haggisman]

That would be an ideal solution if it didn't ignore both the minimal/tidy install (which was a key driver for the swap in the first place) and budget requirements