Taboo topics and the lack of evidence

[dowie]

I want to know whether any actual studies have been done into the claims that people can't survive on benefits and NEED food banks. If there aren't these studies, why not.

you mean like studies on the spending habits of benefits whallahs

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/112...foodbanks-buy-cigarettes-instead-of-food.html

you are probably right in thinking that pointing out that some spend a decent chunk on 'fags etc..' is taboo... it does get a mention though:

Smoking in particular is worth focussing on here, not least because the Feeding Britain report offers this thought:
“A family earning £21,000 a year, for example, where both parents smoke 20 cigarettes a day will spend a quarter of their income on tobacco. Even if people buy illicit tobacco they will still spend 15% of their total income on tobacco. Budgeting support is terribly important, but budgetary support alone is often not enough to equip families to kick their addictive habits when addiction is being fed and defended by some very powerful lobbies.”

Read that again. Some poor families may be spending a quarter of their income on tobacco. A quarter.
That figure is actually even higher than an estimate produced last year by the Institute for Economic Affairs last year, which said that the average smoker from the poorest fifth of households spends between 18 and 22 per cent of their disposable income on cigarettes.

 

[Jacksonn]

There's not enough popcorn in the world for this.

I think i'll just stay away.. My opinions of welfare ect.. May not go down to well.

 

[stuie]

Ive said it before and my thoughts havnt changed

Stop all benefits with the exception of disability (although that needs to be better monitored that bad back doesnt stop you walking to the offie so you can sit at a kiosk) and pensions.

Yes it would cause a lot of homeless yes it would mean a more crime to start with but ffs people need to start realizing if you want something work for it. The last 2/3 generations are the first to be allowed to thrive without working a day and it needs to stop, you wont change these people without hitting them were it hurts.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Here is what I know / can contribute

Benefits are fine to live on (fine meaning you'll just get by), JSA / CTAX and housing will cover you, I know I was unemployed with zero dosh for some months...you make ends meet but expect to be cold. I just couldn't afford heating(aside occasionally) or anything more than basics. Fair enough.

People saying you can't afford basics on JSA that is ********, however I don't smoke nor drink and don't consider those things anybody who works should even engage in (Drinking is ok i just mean excessively). Yes i'm sat up in my ivory tower enjoying the view

But point being... you'll survive.

 

[Ryan-3]

There's a problem here: the above opinion is popularly held, and espoused by awful newspapers, yet is there any evidence to back it up? Unlikely.

There are cases where the money goes on luxuries over necessities. Yes of course we can't restrict these people for their purchases, but there are cases (like that in post #21) that show some of these people making it harder for themselves. I personally feel - and I know someone who does get this (If they have told me this under mis-understanding then please correct me) - extra money to buy alcohol because they've declared themselves an alcoholic is absolutely wrong. If that's the case, since I can't achieve 40MPG in the car I've chosen, their logic would probably give 20% off fuel as it restricts my available budget for other things. They need support, not more drink.

 

[Yaayuh!]

There's not enough popcorn in the world for this.

 

[anything I don't mind]

I estimate that over 70% of people on benefits (excluding disability) are simply exploiting cheap housing and free services because they are available. I think a high percentage of people in social housing have no genuine reason why they can't be renting on the private market.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I really don't think it's for anyone to decide how anyone else spends their benefits. You may as well lock them up in a holiday park and put food through a hatch.

These people may be poor, but they have liberty, and we should do our best to enable that.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Ive said it before and my thoughts havnt changed

Stop all benefits with the exception of disability (although that needs to be better monitored that bad back doesnt stop you walking to the offie so you can sit at a kiosk) and pensions.

Yes it would cause a lot of homeless yes it would mean a more crime to start with but ffs people need to start realizing if you want something work for it. The last 2/3 generations are the first to be allowed to thrive without working a day and it needs to stop, you wont change these people without hitting them were it hurts.

We could take this same mindset and apply it to...

I've said it before and I say it again, raise the damned minimum wage. It hasn't changed in how long? yet prices go up and up. Oh and whilst we're at it i'm happy to cut benefits you know public spending. But how about we stop tax evasion too whilst we're at it... brb god forbid it eats into my billions in profit.... GOD FORBID!!!!!

Now i'm not some socialist hippy, but at the same time I don't ride on the benefit hate train circle jerking myself into oblivion like some posters here seem to love to do.

"The last 2/3 generations are the first to be allowed to thrive without working a day"

You are trolling right? "Thrive" maybe someone should point you in direction of a reddit thread where they compared minimum wage of today vs back round 70's.

I already know I'll never be able to afford a house despite my grandparents etc being able to on a basic wage. (however at least we have cooler technology and in some sense have access to nicer things like pcs phones etc)

 

[Freakbro]

I've said it before and I say it again, raise the damned minimum wage. It hasn't changed in how long?

3.5 months

 

[Armageus]

We could take this same mindset and apply it to...

I've said it before and I say it again, raise the damned minimum wage. It hasn't changed in how long? yet prices go up and up.

Raising the minimum wage doesn't make anyone on the minimum wage anyone better off outside of the very short term though.

The minimum wage increases are just passed on via increases to products e.g. food and services that everyone pays for. All a minimum wage increase in effect does, is devalue the wage of anyone earning more than a minimum wage, who don't necessarily get a similar increase.

Benefits then have to increase in line with the price increases, again impacting tax payers.

Constantly increasing the minimum wage is not the magic fix that people believe it is.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

3.5 months

I mean making it a living wage brah (then we won't need tax credits)

I guess we can count ourselves lucky though (even though it seems like I'm having a moan I'm not, just more discussing other issues), it's not as bad as the land of the "Free".

 

[dowie]

The minimum wage increases are just passed on via increases to products e.g. food and services that everyone pays for. All a minimum wage increase in effect does, is devalue the wage of anyone earning more than a minimum wage, who don't necessarily get a similar increase.

Benefits then have to increase in line with the price increases, again impacting tax payers.

Constantly increasing the minimum wage is not the magic fix that people believe it is.

that is a very simplistic line of thought and not really true

minimum wage isn't the only factor in the price of goods and services, far from it in fact

 

[Armageus]

that is a very simplistic line of thought and not really true

it is a simplistic line of thought, but so it "increasing the minimum wage will fix everything" line of thought.

minimum wage isn't the only factor in the price of goods and services, far from it in fact

In certain industries though it is a large factor - in the article below it's mentioned that for large retailers it can be up to half of a retailers cost.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...d-increase-prices-to-pay-for-living-wage.html


In the industry I work in (haulage), staff represent essentially a third of our cost - whilst our staff are generally above minimum wage to the best of my knowledge, if the entire haulage industry demanded a 10% payrise, then I would expect haulage costs to rise by at least 3.33% to cover that increase.

When the living wage was announced, it was all over the local news that many small businesses were worried about how they would cover the pay increase shortfall - if they already operate on a low margin, they can't simply swallow that cost - it has to come from somewhere.

 

[Akagi]

A lot of poverty in this country is caused by ignorance and lack of money management skills in the afflicted families.

 

[dowie]

it is a simplistic line of thought, but so it "increasing the minimum wage will fix everything" line of thought.

no one has proposed that it will 'fix everything' - you're attacking a straw man there and it still doesn't negate the simplistic line of argument you're taking against the minimum wage re: prices going up

 

[Freakbro]

In certain industries though it is a large factor

Yea, the effect of wage costs in different sectors can be significantly different. I have a couple of clients that are Nurseries and in those wage costs can be up to ~85% of turnover

The living wage, which I am all for, is going to have a huge impact on the price being charged for childcare over the next few years and it's horrendously expensive already!

 

[Armageus]

no one has proposed that it will 'fix everything' - you're attacking a straw man there

No probably not and I'm probably not helping in dragging this thread off topic - however my point was aimed more at the bit about prices going up and minimum wage needing to be increased to counter that.

I've said it before and I say it again, raise the damned minimum wage. It hasn't changed in how long? yet prices go up and up.

Where in reality minimum wage increases that force prices to go up *in certain industries* anyway.

and it still doesn't negate the simplistic line of argument you're taking against the minimum wage re: prices going up

In certain industries increasing the minimum wage has an almost direct effect on product/service costs. As Freakbro has mentioned childcare is one area.

Catering e.g. Restaurants and the like will be another as staff make up a large percentage of cost.


Another will be on fresh food prepared or packaged in the U.K. (as opposed to frozen or dried that can be packed half away across the world).

E.g. People who work in factories cutting and preparing vegetables, or making prepacked sandwiches etc are mostly all on minimum wage - so any increase will likely have to be passed onto retailers (or subsidised elsewhere)

 

[dowie]

In certain industries increasing the minimum wage has an almost direct effect on product/service costs. As Freakbro has mentioned childcare is one area.

Another will be on fresh food prepared or packaged in the U.K. (as opposed to frozen or dried that can be packed half away across the world).

E.g. People who work in factories cutting and preparing vegetables, or making prepacked sandwiches etc are mostly all on minimum wage - so any increase will likely have to be passed onto retailers (or subsidised elsewhere)

certain industries... sure... but that is now a different argument to the simplistic - 'prices will go up so its pointless' one

some prices will rise, some will be relatively buffered from it - it is overall inflation that you need to worry about and there doesn't seem to be too much to get worried about re: a modest minimum wage increase

 

[stewski]

I estimate that over 70% of people on benefits (excluding disability) are simply exploiting cheap housing and free services because they are available. I think a high percentage of people in social housing have no genuine reason why they can't be renting on the private market.

I estimate 95.3% of made up statistics are are done so to enforce a nonsensical position.