Teaching 'challenging behaviour' kids.

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We often read about discipline being lax within schools nowadays and those of us who are old enough to remember corporal punishment tend to chirp up with "it never did me any harm": Whilst researching along those lines, I came accross Channel 4's documentary 'undercover teacher', made in July 2005. The video is on Youtube, if you want to have a look.

I found it really shocking and saddening to see how some kids can totally **** it up for those that might want to actually get an education and that there seemed to be no way to control the behaviour of these children.

These are children who act like animals, not adults, yet they all know their 'rights' and expect the same respect that adults should receive; no wonder that many of the teachers I know are so demoralised.

I don't suppose all schools are like the three featured, but maybe you youngsters know more about these things.

It is just as well that I never became a teacher, I'd be serving time for assault or murder :eek:



EDIT.

I meant to include the fact that I also watched the Horizon program 'Who do you want your child to be' earlier this week, which I found very interesting. It's available on iplayer, if you want to see it.
Towards the end there is a piece about an inner city school in America where the kids get paid for attendance, good marks, wearing uniform etc; seemed to be successful.
 
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It is sometimes mentioned how this is a fairly recent development. However, I left school in 1994 and there was enough disruption then to block education for a lot of people in a lot of lessons. Splitting in to ability didn't work either because it only takes one or two to kill off an entire teaching session and you can guarantee amongst a group of disruptive pupils there is at least one who is intelligent and either doesn't care or doesn't want to be seen caring.

What I do hear a lot more of is teachers being challenged and assaulted by parents.

When I worked in Newcastle I noticed quite a few school aged people were going to special schools for people who mainstream schools would no longer accept.

There was actually some big report in Tyneside a few years back which was run by people actually in the know in education, and which concluded some pupils were deliberately failing exams because they didn't want to look clever and therefore 'uncool' by passing.

There's a whole mindset that needs changing in education in my opinion.
 
hit them hard, it's the only way these animals learn. Do something bad, something bad happens to you. simple, kids weren't out of control when parents could freely smack there kids in the past.
 
It's true, hitting is fine I think, I'm sure other animals do similar acts towards there young ones.

Although I'm not in a good position to comment as I'm only 19 :p
 
robgmun said:
hit them hard, it's the only way these animals learn. Do something bad, something bad happens to you. simple, kids weren't out of control when parents could freely smack there kids in the past.
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People used to get a good hiding when I was a kid and many still do. It doesn't always help.

a lot of these kids have pretty damn awful homelives anyway (as do a lot of nice kids I know).

Behaviour like that shouldn't be tolerated in schools but it takes a whole mindset change from parents too to sort the problem. Corporal punishment on its own wouldnt help when the parents are so likely to come zooming to school and assault or remonstrate with a teacher.
 
It's too late once they are at school IMO, they need to be taught right from wrong at a very early stage, if that means a slap and a "NO" then it should mean NO, not after five minutes giving in to the bawling brats to shut them up.
Once they've done it once they'll do it again because they know it works. That then leads on from there, any way they can to make sure they get their own way, bigger and more aggressive behaviour as they get older, the situation never gets any better.
 
These kids need to be taught what is right and wrong. that means either evening classes or even better taking them away from their parents. But before that their should be classes and advice for parents with punishments.
In a lot of cases the parents are the same as the kids and will punch teachers.
 
Thinking back there are always going to be tossers who disrupt the class, it's a shame that the teachers can't/ are not allowed to get these kids in line.
I left school in 1991 and it was the same then.
I remember once I was at the end of my tether in a science class and I stood up, turned round (rest of class were fairly quiet so I stood out somewhat) and shouted at the disruptor) " Look, you ****, if you can't be bothered to shut up and listen, **** off and let the rest of us actually try and learn something instead off ****ing about all the time, I want an education, even if you don't"

Guess who got the bollocking :(
I gave up trying after that
 
DominicStar said:
There was actually some big report in Tyneside a few years back which was run by people actually in the know in education, and which concluded some pupils were deliberately failing exams because they didn't want to look clever and therefore 'uncool' by passing.
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This happened in my school way way back. There was a group of kids who gave me and a few others a really hard time because we wanted to work.

Amazingly I came across the leader of that pack not long ago when I was doing a locum job in a hospital in the East End of London ( my home ground).
He had obviously led a pretty wretched life and it was also obvious that he recognised me, my surname is unusual.
I was so tempted to taunt him about where his attitude at school (and his bullying of me) had got him in life.
Of course, being the fine professional that I am, I did no such thing. Gave him the treatment he required and wished him luck.
I wonder how he brought up his children.
 
The problem is that we persist in educating people that don't want or can't benefit from a formal education. Some people would be better off with the bare minimum of education and then doing apprenticeships or manual labour, which don't require the same academic abilities.

It doesn't help that our benefit system makes it easier not to work. Why should kids care about an education if their parents managed fine with no qualifications and no jobs?

Suggesting corporal punishment is tackling the symptoms of the problem, rather than the cause.
 
there are 2 causes for this. parental control - eg teaching respect for elders/strangers etc, and rights eg teachers have to be very very tolerant as they are not allowed to threaten or raise a hand to a child or they'll get locked up.

weird situation where you can't blame those involved - just the parents for allowing such a shocking set of moral standards.

the czech republic could teach us a lot where respect is as they think if you've been on the planet longer your opinions more valid. eg 40yr old v 20yr old - you'd believe the 40yr old first then the 20yr old. Also i can remember putting my feet on a train seat from hradec kralove to brno and the conductor/ticket person went ballistic at me. he threatened to chuck me off the train at next station for daring to be so disrespectful. i can understand his viewpoint. you never once seen anyone being stupid or littering etc.
 
This is why the determination to treat all kids equally and eliminate seperation/selection/streaming is a bad idea.

Children should not be permitted to disrupt the learning of those who want to learn.
 
Dolph said:
This is why the determination to treat all kids equally and eliminate seperation/selection/streaming is a bad idea.

Children should not be permitted to disrupt the learning of those who want to learn.
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absolutely. should be a reward incentive/scheme in that if you work hard you move to the top class, if you don't you stay with the other dropouts.
 
helpimcrap said:
absolutely. should be a reward incentive/scheme in that if you work hard you move to the top class, if you don't you stay with the other dropouts.
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Or we reverse the trend of abandoning selection and bring back the grammar school.

I'm still bitter that my LEA decided that to get rid of grammar schools and drag all the schools in the area down to the same mediocre standard.
 
As long as we live in a nation driven by political correctness and soft touch standards this will always be the case.
Bring back real punishments. Bring back real police. Bring tough sentences into play. Regulate the benefits system. Do these things and we will start to mop up the idiots. There are entire families of them as noted by Footman's post. You will never fix this by just changing education, the issue is bigger than that.
These kids are running wild on an evening with their friends in a lot of cases. Why would they respect anybody's authority at school if the ultimate authority (police) cannot control them?
 
Dolph said:
Or we reverse the trend of abandoning selection and bring back the grammar school.
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I agree to an extent, but there are large numbers of people in grant maintained and grammar schools whose parents got them there. Some of the people that went to grammar school after my primary school failed the eleven plus but you can guarantee the middle classes find ways around that. I know that might be read as jealousy but I never applied, couldn't have got to the school even if I did. Mind, I was only at that primary school because I was from a catholic family and I didn't want to be there anyway.

If you fully reinstate the system you really need a system that can detect the less priveleged kids with high intelligence levels and weed out those whose parents are buying them in on account of house prices and contributions to the schools. I don't mean quotas for income groups, more a system of recommendation from teachers and liaison with parents that wouldn't normally see the option of their children applying for these schools.

In the present climate any new places would likely be swallowed up by the large number of children coming out of private schools because the parents can no longer afford the fees.
 
That was what the 11+ exam was for, to ensure that those who had high intelligence levels had the opportunity for a better education.

Put everyone through the test, and take it from there.
 
The thing was it was abstract at best and its not exactly a hidden secret that plenty of middle class parents didn't let minor details like their children failing it stop them getting to grammar school. Fair enough they fought a system and won which is more than some parents will.

I think it's unrealistic to say it ensures anything. It gives those who pass one test, many with the help of expensive private tutors get a better chance, but a chance that involves other factors outside the reach of a lot of families.

If they are brought back they need to be widely expanded and some extra measures such as transport schemes for families who can not afford the travel for their children to get to them.
 
I agree with others who say that this isn't a new thing. I started high school in 1996, and my first two years were awful. My class had two of the worst trouble makers in my year and they took away huge chunks of the teachers attention. One thing that always bothered me was a girl who had no interest in being there and walked out of classes didn't get punished, she got her own private tutor! Meanwhile, I was miles ahead in maths but literally got left to twiddle my thumbs.

The problem is that teachers can't punish students at all. Being suspended for a couple of days isn't a threat, and since education is mandatory up to a certain age being expelled doesn't mean much to the really bad kids either.
 
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