Tempted by some cheap GTX460 SLI action? Might want to check this out first before laying down your

[Duff-Man]

Sick of reading this fanboy s*** on every damn forum i go on, all i want is a yes or no, will i notice it, is it worth buying GTX460 SLI?

Unfortunately life is not always as simple as a "yes or no".

But since I haven't got a fanboy bone in me, I will say this:

YES it's a real phenomenon.
YES it will affect your gameplay if you go for a GTX460 SLI setup.
YES it will act as an effective reduction of framerate.
MAYBE you will notice it to an extent where it annoys you.


As for whether you should go for the 460SLI setup or not, that depends a lot on whether you are planning to use vsync. Personally I would always go for a single high-end GPU in preference to two slower GPUs in SLI, but in the case of GTX460s vs a single GTX480 it's not so clear-cut. Ignoring microstutter the GTX460s offer better performance. Including the effect of MS it's touch-and-go.

 

[Martini1991]

You mean 460 Duff.

 

[Duff-Man]

You mean 460 Duff.

Yeah

Brainfart, sorry.

 

[Scougar]

Need to fully star out your sweary

Choice is yours fella. If you can afford the single card go with that, but if trying to max your pennies, then sli. Bear in mind two cards demand more cpu resources so will need something reasonable to feed them

This has really turned into a microstutter thread, but read the comments and decide Good luck.

 

[ishoeyi]

i think i notice these stutters

which what drive me and becoming an obession to get better cpu and gpu to play games at the magical 60fps to make the stutter almost undetected by our naked eyes

i agree that a single gpu is better but most of the time the multi gpu set up is just so god damn good value for money.

but i think i'll continue to use multi gpu set up even with these flaws

 

[tdream]

*sigh* How many times do I need to re-post the same information?


As I explained earlier in great detail, there are edge effects when you are close to the transition framerates with vsync enabled. Sufficiently close to these transitions you can still get irregular frame output. However, at framerates more than a couple of % above the monitor's maximum refresh rate, you will see no microstutter. I have plenty of quantitative evidence of this (which I'm not reporting AGAIN).

Regarding your "point 3", what exactly are you trying to say here? That entire schpeel is incomprehensible... Try to make concise points devoid of weak opinion.

pt4: I put a percentage on the apparent reduction in framerate. "Smoothness" is a subjective thing, which we normally measure in frames-per-second. Microstutter renders the traditional frames-per-second measure of smoothness inaccurate. Read back to where I describe the procedure for quantifying framerate irregularity used in my program. It is a well defined mathematical procedure, using very well known statistical processes.

pt5: This relates back to the "you don't lose by adding a second GPU" principle. Whether you have one GPU or two, there are inevitably places where you will encounter CPU limitation (this varies game by game and game-scene by game-scene). Because multi-GPU output syncs to the regular output of the CPU in situations where the GPU finishes its workload before the CPU, there will be no loss of performance from the addition of a second GPU in such circumstances.



... You sound like you think I'm trying to make a point about microstutter, or multi-GPU setups one way or the other. I'm not. I don't care whether people go for single or multi-GPU setups. I couldn't care less about persuading people to go for one setup or the other. ALL I'M TRYING TO DO is explain to people WHAT microstutter is, and HOW it affects their gameplay experience. This consists of analysing its effects, and as far as possible, quantifying them. By understanding what microstutter is and how it affects gameplay, people can make a more informed choice about what setup to spend their hard earned cash on. In addition, by raising awareness of microstutter as a real phenomenon that can effect gameplay (which it is) we improve the chances of nvidia or ATI actually doing something to reduce it within drivers.

Well you can keep reposting the same information but it doesn't make it right. I am aware you have gone into great detail regarding the issue, but your stance seems to be the pros outweigh the cons so if it comes down to a choice between single or multi. You would still go multi, I wouldn't because I want smoothness at 60fps. So if I had to buy again I would go for the 480 instead of SLi. Which doesn't work properly at all in a few games. Settlers 7 for example.

The spiel, that you didn't understand is fairly simple. If the user doesn't notice microstutter at 60fps then I'm saying he probably will be satisfied with 40fps too.

The informed choice for me is once you've seen properly vsynced 60 fps then anything else is a poor substitute. Devil May Cry 2 did it perfectly on the old 285 and so did BF2.

/D3Doverrider doesn''t work with SLi either.

 

[Duff-Man]

I am aware you have gone into great detail regarding the issue, but your stance seems to be the pros outweigh the cons so if it comes down to a choice between single or multi.

My stance is simply that "numbers don't lie". Nothing more.

Microstutter can be quantified, and I have done just that. Anything more is personal opinion and conjecture.

And you're wrong if you think that I believe "the pros outweight the cons". Many times I have advised against dual GPU setups when a single-GPU alternative is available. But that does not negate the fact that adding a second card, for all the issues it brings, STILL gives a bump to real-world performance in almost all circumstances. This is something which can be analysed quantitatively, so there isn't really much of an argument against it. The important point is simply that the real-world improvements are not as large as basic benchmarks would lead you to believe.

 

[Locky]

I love all these comments from people that don't own and never owned such hardware talked about in this thread, however..
there is a few folk in this thread that have owned both hardware in question and don't see such extreme stutter shown in this thread.
I myself that has owned both 5870 and owned various Fermi cards don't see this extreme micro stutter.

 

[kitch9]

Hardforum says so it must be true

Did you even read the description?

 

[kitch9]

Well you can keep reposting the same information but it doesn't make it right. I am aware you have gone into great detail regarding the issue, but your stance seems to be the pros outweigh the cons so if it comes down to a choice between single or multi. You would still go multi, I wouldn't because I want smoothness at 60fps. So if I had to buy again I would go for the 480 instead of SLi. Which doesn't work properly at all in a few games. Settlers 7 for example.

The spiel, that you didn't understand is fairly simple. If the user doesn't notice microstutter at 60fps then I'm saying he probably will be satisfied with 40fps too.

The informed choice for me is once you've seen properly vsynced 60 fps then anything else is a poor substitute. Devil May Cry 2 did it perfectly on the old 285 and so did BF2.

/D3Doverrider doesn''t work with SLi either.

60fps with V Sync is exactly the same with Single or multi GPU. The monitor is the delaying factor in that scenario as the cards will not output their rendered frames until the monitor sends its sync signal. The monitor will NOT wait the the cards to finish their frames, hence the framerate jumps from 60 to 30 if your cards can't keep up.

Without V Sync the card/s become the delaying factor, and whilst there are uneven frame render times with single and multi gpu without v sync, it is a bit more prevalent with multi-gpu, hence micro stutter in a some scenarios. (Not all.)

I play BFBC2 at 60fps v sync locked on my 2x 460's and it is smooth as a babys ass, as it should be.

 

[bfar]

I've been using sli gtx460's for the past 3 weeks, and I honestly haven't seen it. I'm usually quite sensitive to stuff like that, so I don't know, maybe I've just been lucky so far.

I would point out that that a lot depends on your eyes. Some people are sensitive to subtle changes, and some are not - some can't see things at all. If we really are talking about variations in lag between frames rendered, then I would expect that a good proportion of people will never perceive it unless fps are very low.
The behavior we're seeing in those videos could be explained by more mundane circumstances, such as paging.

For those looking at a sli gtx460 setup, I'd still recommend it as a very viable option, especially if you can get em cheap; they smoke a single gtx480 in most scenarios. In the past I've always gone for a single card setup, but Nvidia's drivers are actually up to scratch atm, and going by subjective observation there's little to complain about

 

[Jibber55]

I'm not sure the actual percieved stutter is the issue the OP was trying to raise but more the loss of frame rate as a result. Perhaps I'm wrong though.
I've also had a number of mutli-gou setups and not seen the dreaded microstutter as shown in those vids but I was not aware that the number we see in benchmark tests may not actually be what you see when playing a game due to 'unseen' stutter.
I don't think anyone is suggesting multi-gpu is crap, just making sure people, like myself, are aware and have all the information.

 

[Scougar]

I am pretty sure Ejizz is just trying to raise awareness before everyone jumps on the 460 SLI bandwagon.

 

[kitch9]

I am pretty sure Ejizz is just trying to raise awareness before everyone jumps on the 460 SLI bandwagon.

There's raising awareness, and there's spreading FUD.

In the OP's instance its spreading FUD as its not micro stutter in the videos, its just stutter.

I find GTA4 stutters under SLI but not when I turn SLI off, this again is not micro stutter, its just the game stuttering when SLI is on.

 

[bfar]

I was not aware that the number we see in benchmark tests may not actually be what you see when playing a game due to 'unseen' stutter.

i.e. 60fps on a sli setup isn't as good as 60fps on a single card.

There's no way to measure this, therefore there's no way to proove whether it's subjective perception or not, or who can or can't perceive it. This is why this micro-stuttering thing is such a controversial goblin. Just look at this thread!

Going back to the thread title, figures and benchies aside, I have 2 gtx460s running my games right now. For anyone who's considering this, here's some genuine user feedback..

Sli gtx460's are absolutely fantastic It's very fast. It's pretty quiet. It was cheaper than a single gtx480. I'm very happy

 

[tdream]

There's raising awareness, and there's spreading FUD.

In the OP's instance its spreading FUD as its not micro stutter in the videos, its just stutter.

I find GTA4 stutters under SLI but not when I turn SLI off, this again is not micro stutter, its just the game stuttering when SLI is on.

LoL I was going to come up with a lengthy rebuke for your previous comment but this just says it all.

 

[Duff-Man]

There's no way to measure this, therefore there's no way to proove whether it's subjective perception or not, or who can or can't perceive it. This is why this micro-stuttering thing is such a controversial goblin. Just look at this thread!

Well, it can be measured. Data irregularity is a rather simple to quantify analytically (I wrote a program to do just this from FRAPS benchmarks). As for the human-effect: Certainly it IS subjective, just like framerate (some people are happy with 40fps, some need 100fps to feel completely 'smooth'), but the way the brain processes data from the eye is well understood, so a comparative framerate is easy to compute (comparative as in an equivalent framerate should there be no microstutter).

I agree that it's still a controversial beast, but this is mainly due to:
a) It being a subtle effect which is not immediately recognisable
b) It not being as straightforward and easy to understand as simple framerate measurements
c) People's attachment to a particular configuration (single or multi-GPU) and desire to believe either one way or the other that their chosen config is "the right way of doing things". Preconceptions cloud the mind, even if they are largely subconcious.

 

[kitch9]

LoL I was going to come up with a lengthy rebuke for your previous comment but this just says it all.

I'm sorry dude there's a difference from frames stalling and micro stutter, and if you fail to understand that based on what people have posted, then to be frank you shouldn't really get involved.

Have you ever even had a sli or xfire rig?

 

[tdream]

I'm sorry dude there's a difference from frames stalling and micro stutter, and if you fail to understand that based on what people have posted, then to be frank you shouldn't really get involved.

Have you ever even had a sli or xfire rig?

You're so far off base it's not worth the effort.

Can you read?
|
v

 

[Scougar]

Perhaps he has sigs turned off.