The Benefit State

Slinwagh · 20 Mar 2008 at 13:11

[TW]Fox;11335030 said:
The annoying thing here is that nobody forced them to have 6 children. They have 6 children entirely through either their own choice or their own stupidity

I agree but the second you say people are not allowed to have children the civil liberties brigade will be all over you like a rash.

Indy500 · 20 Mar 2008 at 13:14

Slinwagh said:
I agree but the second you say people are not allowed to have children the civil liberties brigade will be all over you like a rash.

You lot seem to be against life constantly. Repeated comments against having children, and a thread full of replies wanting that woman with a tumour to die rather than try to fight it...

I think we ought to be addressing the welfare system's faults, rather than telling people how many children they can have.

Morba · 20 Mar 2008 at 13:24

jamief said:
They are 2 adults and 6 children who "cannot work".

25k in Housing Benefit a year
4k in Child Benefit a year
£12k in Child Tax Credits a year
£6k in Incapacity Benefit a year

I find this an utter scandal - that £47,000 per year equates to the full tax contributions of about 15 people earning £20k odd a year.

Ok, top figure sounds bad but consider this:
You do not know if 1 or both are not able to work or the seriousness of the incapacity. £6k could be a lot or it could be next to nothing.
£4k in child benefit, 6 kids, sounds about right, cant really complain.
£25k in housing benefit. Housing is not cheap, especially not a house with many bedrooms, this would also include council tax iirc.
£12k in child tax / income support, maybe if the kids are old enough this could be normal.

Who knows, these parents could have been high earners that put a lot into the coffers themselves who have had a bad accident that incapacitated them both.

[TW]Fox · 20 Mar 2008 at 13:26

benneh said:
Yah but for all we know we're talking about 1 working parent, 1 disabled parent and 6 kids born with inherent disabilities?

Even worse. If you are disabled, you have two children and both have inherent disabilities, you dont work... why would you then decide to have another 4 more kids? It's hardly going to get better as you pop even more out is it?

Bar · 20 Mar 2008 at 13:30

sr4470 - what are your thoughts on the strength of the gene pool.

I myself could not take the steps to ensure that it improves and remains strong but I feel by intervening far too much and not letting darwinism run its course we are setting ourselves up for major problems in the future.

By no means should we go down the route of eugenics but less medical and social intervention may be the best thing for humanity in the long run.

Indy500 · 20 Mar 2008 at 13:34

Bar said:
By no means should we go down the route of eugenics but less medical and social intervention may be the best thing for humanity in the long run.

Just don't rely on the state for everything - we need to encourage self-sufficiency at all levels. Have kids, but if you can't look after them, deal with the consequences.

Sonea Fifer · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:03

jamief said:
I find it quite offensive that a family, who clearly can't afford it, would have 6 children. I'd never consider having children until I could afford it and it was the right time in my life - a lot of "council estate" types will be churning them out from the age of 16, safe in the knowledge that the state will pay for their kids. Their kids grow up just like them, and the cycle repeats. Maybe if the state just stopped paying out people would be forced to make a decision about having kids in the first place? (I'm not referring to incapacity benefit here).

Also £25,000 a year on housing benefit - thats more than the average UK salary!

Surely it would make sense for the government to pay out full benefits for the first child - any children born into the family after that become the financial responsobility of the parents - if they cant afford it they dont have any more.

Muffin` · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:04

If another government came to power, let’s say, the Tories - Can they 'undo' what Labour has implemented with the benefit system? Not a turn off button but reducing the eligibility for Social Housing and benefit handouts?

Indy500 · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:05

Muffin` said:
If another government came to power, let’s say, the Tories - Can they 'undo' what Labour has implemented with the benefit system? Not a turn off button but reducing the eligibility for Social Housing and benefit handouts?

The current government brought in means-testing, which is what caused the current problem. No reason it couldn't be removed.

Voltar · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:05

Nuke 'em from orbit. Job done.

Muffin` · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:08

ah ok, I'm not old enough to remember the John Major era, but was the benefit system then non existent - Disability and dole?

camels5 · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:09

Stretch said:
Yeah but you only get tax credit if you're working. That's why it's called "working familes tax credit".

Link

If you're not working you get Child tax credit, when you work more than 16 hours it becomes working tax credit.

and why the hell is your friend emailing your what must be confidential information?

Indy500 · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:12

Muffin` said:
ah ok, I'm not old enough to remember the John Major era, but was the benefit system then non existent - Disability and dole?

Thatcher did scale back things like housing and benefits, but you still got your rent back then. Social housing was the main thing that was cut under the conservatives.

camels5 · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:13

jamief said:
I find it quite offensive that a family, who clearly can't afford it, would have 6 children. I'd never consider having children until I could afford it and it was the right time in my life - a lot of "council estate" types will be churning them out from the age of 16, safe in the knowledge that the state will pay for their kids. Their kids grow up just like them, and the cycle repeats. Maybe if the state just stopped paying out people would be forced to make a decision about having kids in the first place? (I'm not referring to incapacity benefit here).

Also £25,000 a year on housing benefit - thats more than the average UK salary!

How do we know that they wern't working when they had the children? circumstances do change. Perhaps the op could email his friend and find out for us, he seems to hand out information quite willingly!

[TW]Fox · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:22

camels5 said:
How do we know that they wern't working when they had the children?

Given the cost of bringing up just one child unless they had high end jobs even if they were working bringing up 6 children would be problematic.

USE CONDOMS TBH

wordy · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:31

sr4470 said:
Just don't rely on the state for everything - we need to encourage self-sufficiency at all levels. Have kids, but if you can't look after them, deal with the consequences.

The only problem with that is the innocent children will suffer.

monkeyspank · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:44

involuntary neutering after 2 children per couple!

Locky · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:46

[TW]Fox;11335549 said:
USE CONDOMS TBH

Doesnt feel as nice

Bill101 · 20 Mar 2008 at 14:51

[TW]Fox;11335549 said:
Given the cost of bringing up just one child unless they had high end jobs even if they were working bringing up 6 children would be problematic.

USE CONDOMS TBH

Being from Plymouth you must know my OH's family where uncle Sidney had 16 children(he had a weak heart and so could not work

). They turned out ok and have worked their way off benefits.

Indy500 · 20 Mar 2008 at 15:00

wordy said:
The only problem with that is the innocent children will suffer.

I doubt too many people would carry on if there wasn't a guaranteed blanket of support...there are enough charities and other such groups to take care of those cases that would still happen. In fact, didn't Dolph say he had people in mind he'd help if the welfare system was drastically cut back?